Electric kettle and hot break

Where did it go? I could boilover a 6 gallon batch in a 20 gallon pot no problem with propane. With electric, maybe an inch or two, then it quickly dissipates.

Is this the same with all electric setups? Now i've got 2 bottles of fermcap going to waste.

Well... I have 2x 5500w elements in my keggle and I EASILY boiled over a 5 gallon batch. I actually have to watch it like a hawk or it dumps foam all over the floor as I approach boil on most batches.

It might be the amount of power you have, or maybe you have something is breaking up the foam bubbles for you already.

shushikiary said:

Well... I have 2x 5500w elements in my keggle and I EASILY boiled over a 5 gallon batch. I actually have to watch it like a hawk or it dumps foam all over the floor as I approach boil on most batches.

It might be the amount of power you have, or maybe you have something is breaking up the foam bubbles for you already.

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Why the crazy amount of watts? That's more than double what you need.

I have 4500 watts for a 6 gallon batch, it will throw wort right out of my 15 gallon kettle if I don't throttle it back. I leave it all the way up until the hot break (which is almost nil) then turn it down below half way, still a vigorous boil.

The system was a first step in building a large all grain system that will need a decent amount of power.

That and I'm impatient, I had the power available so why not? haha. Being able to boil 15 gallons in 20 minutes is nice .

Batch #4 today and maybe an inch or two of hot break tops, i'm liking this.

Think it's a wattage thing. at 4500W in my BK the hot break never got too crazy. Once I put a 5500 in there it started to become more of an issue.

I have two 4500 watt elements and make 35 gallon batches. This is barely enough power (I run PID on 90% power after I reach a boil). I get a huge hot break.

CodeRage said:

Think it's a wattage thing. at 4500W in my BK the hot break never got too crazy. Once I put a 5500 in there it started to become more of an issue.

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Yep, me too. I've boiled over a 5 gallon batch in a keggle way too many times, and just started using Fermcap to solve it, but I have a 5500w element in my BK. It works great for 12 gallons, too, with the Fermcap!

I usually start with around 14 gallons pre-boil in my 20 gallon kettle and use a 5500W element. I get a very vigorous boil and hot break and have to carefully watch for boil overs.

Kal

I start with about 12-13 gallons in my keggle. 4000-6000W (depending on heat sticks) and never a problem with boil overs. It might be that I have a 720cfm exhaust fan about 8" above the keggle, though..

CodeRage said:

Think it's a wattage thing. at 4500W in my BK the hot break never got too crazy. Once I put a 5500 in there it started to become more of an issue.

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If that's the case, why do I have to turn it down below half when the boil starts?

wildwest450 said:

If that's the case, why do I have to turn it down below half when the boil starts?

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I may have found the reason you are not having huge boil overs...

If you want a big sticky mess, just leave that sucker cranked up. One of the great things about e-brewing is dialing in the energy so you don't have to deal with boil overs.

A little OT, but what exactly IS the definition of the Hot Break? Is it the start of the foaming? Or when it doesn't foam anymore with the same power applied?

Could go to answering WW's question...

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I may have found the reason you are not having huge boil overs...

If you want a big sticky mess, just leave that sucker cranked up. One of the great things about e-brewing is dialing in the energy so you don't have to deal with boil overs.

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BK, I do leave full power on until 3/4 of foam is gone. It will foam up an inch or two then start to dissipate, that's when you either turn it down or have boiling wort flying out of the kettle.

I'm not complaining that it doesn't boilover, just wondering why the hot break is considerably smaller than my propane one.

wildwest450 said:

If that's the case, why do I have to turn it down below half when the boil starts?

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When the water starts to boil it goes through a phase change (liquid to gas). During that process heat energy is being stored in the water as latent heat of vaporization. Roughly that means it take X amount of energy to get the water to 100C, the water will stay at 100C until another Y amount of heat energy is absorbed by the water. The amount of energy required to change 100C water to steam is SIGNIFICANTLY more than the total amount of energy required to get liquid water from 0C to 100C.

The reason why you need to drop the output once the boil start is because the water now has enough heat energy in it to overcome the latent heat thresh hold for vaporization phase change. Think of it like a heat capacitor. Once you've reached this point you can reduce your heat input enough to overcome what ever heat loss the system is under, any surplus energy is transfered into steam.


The hot break is when some of the proteins begin to congeal, or bond together, and when the boil starts these proteins stick to the bubbles surface. The protein bubbles don't dissipate like water and accumulate to form a nice frothy boil over.

wildwest450 said:

BK, I do leave full power on until 3/4 of foam is gone. It will foam up an inch or two then start to dissipate, that's when you either turn it down or have boiling wort flying out of the kettle.

I'm not complaining that it doesn't boilover, just wondering why the hot break is considerably smaller than my propane one.

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Cause your propane burner is putting in much more heat energy creating more steam bubbles. So the protein bubbles on the top build much quicker than they dissipate and viola, boil over.

CodeRage said:

The hot break is when some of the proteins begin to congeal, or bond together, and when the boil starts these proteins stick to the bubbles surface. The protein bubbles don't dissipate like water and accumulate to form a nice frothy boil over.

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Right - I got that part, but have you achieved Hot break when it starts to foam? Or is Hot Break achieved when the proteins are no longer strong enough to cause the foaming?

I can turn down the heat to a nice boil after the foam starts, and prevent a boil over. But adding heat causes the foam again. Have I then "Hot Broken"?
Because I can leave the heat where it is and let it foam away, and after a few minutes the foam will subside on its own (It was a 10g batch in a 20g pot )

I always though hot break was when then proteins formed, like just before the boil my bk looks like egg drop soup sometimes.

Maybe its when all of the proteins have broken down and you can turn the boil up with out it foaming over. That would make sense to me

CodeRage said:

I always though hot break was when then proteins formed, like just before the boil my bk looks like egg drop soup sometimes.

Maybe its when all of the proteins have broken down and you can turn the boil up with out it foaming over. That would make sense to me

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I'm glad I'm not the only one that's confused by this

The hot "break" is when the coagulated proteins are degraded and no longer stuck together in huge chains. Thus, the foam is significantly less stable and we no longer have to be uber worried about boil overs. The proteins are stuck together during the mash and early stages of the boil, and are broken down by the increased energy in the boil. At least that is my memory of how it works. I haven't read a brewing text book in a while, and like three-dimensional calculus, what we don't use, we don't remember.

Really the only important thing to remember is: Once the foam drops back down (disappears), turn down the heat to maintain the boil, and start your countdown timer.

For example. if it's a 60 minute boil and you have 60 minute hops to add, this is when you do it and then start the countdown timer.

Kal

That's exactly why I wanted to know then the "Break" actually occurred - It could be a 15 minute difference, and a game changer in hoppy beers...

If a 60 minute boil really is a 75 minute boil, it would screw up my evaporation numbers and I could not predict the final boil volume anymore. In my view a 60 minute boil starts when we have achieved a vigorous boil, hot break or not. That's when I add my bittering hops too, but then I usually boil 7.4 gallons for a 5.5 gallon batch (90 min), so there is plenty of room in the keggle to hold foam. I can see that for a 10 or 11 gallon batch this could be a real problem with the added foaming of the hop addition. I think I would be inclined to do a 90 minute boil with the first hop addition at 60 minutes.

Quaffer said:

If a 60 minute boil really is a 75 minute boil, it would screw up my evaporation numbers and I could not predict the final boil volume anymore. In my view a 60 minute boil starts when we have achieved a vigorous boil, hot break or not.

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I've done 60+ batches and have always had a hot break. They never last more than a few minutes tops, I then add hops and start timer.

The reason you may not want to add hops before the break is that hops will be bound to some extent by the proteins and compounds that precipitate during the hot break. This can lead to uneven bittering and utilization. If it doesn't bother you, then save the 10-15 minutes.

Update, i'm a fool. I was turning down my element the minute the break started, it would disappear quickly. The last 2 boils I let it go for a minute longer and it will foam over the same as a burner would do. Vigorous thick foam for a good long time.

I wonder if any wort quality is sacrificed if you don't let it go through an intense hot break?

So the majority of you wait until after the hot break to add hops? Been doing that wrong for 2 years now I guess. Wonder if it will make a difference.

I've always waited until the hot break falls back in before starting my boil timer and add hops (if hops are called for at that time of course).

Kal

CoalCracker said:

So the majority of you wait until after the hot break to add hops? Been doing that wrong for 2 years now I guess. Wonder if it will make a difference.

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Most definitely.



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