started making electric plans, wondering why spa panel is necessary?

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
-TH-

-TH-

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
913
Reaction score
110
Location
Zeeland, Michigan
After doing a little bit of searching, I see that code requires 240V appliances such as water heaters to have a disconnect box OR a lockable circuit breaker in the main box. My rig will be right down the hall from my main box, is there any reason I can't just use a lockable GFCI breaker in the main box and skip the spa panel?
 
-TH- said:
After doing a little bit of searching, I see that code requires 240V appliances such as water heaters to have a disconnect box OR a lockable circuit breaker in the main box. My rig will be right down the hall from my main box, is there any reason I can't just use a lockable GFCI breaker in the main box and skip the spa panel?
Click to expand...
The reason I recommend the Spa Panel is that it is based on cost. Sometimes the cost of a GFCI breaker for the mains panel is way over the top and could cost over $150. You can get a Spa Panel from HomeDepot for about $55.

Regarding the GFCI - I firmly believe that it is a critical safety issue and must be in place to protect you. You will be working in a wet area after all and for that it is required by NEC.

I hope this makes sense.

P-J
 
P-J said:
The reason I recommend the Spa Panel is that it is based on cost. Sometimes the cost of a GFCI breaker for the mains panel is way over the top and could cost over $150. You can get a Spa Panel from HomeDepot for about $55.

Regarding the GFCI - I firmly believe that it is a critical safety issue and must be in place to protect you. You will be working in a wet area after all and for that it is required by NEC.

I hope this makes sense.

P-J
Click to expand...

Ok thanks P-J. No question I will be using a GFCI circuit breaker. The decision I'm trying to make is where to use it.

I can get a 50amp GFCI for my main panel (Square-D QO250GFI) on ebay for $85 shipped. That's still more than the $55 spa panel but to make a fair comparison I would also need to get a 50 amp breaker (non-GFCI) for the main panel right? which for me is about $15 so that makes it $70 vs. $85. So I guess the spa panel is still the cheaper way to go like you said plus I think it would be more convenient to have the breaker near the brew-rig so my decision is getting easier...
 
Your last comment is right on the money.! This way you would have no hesitation to deliberately trip it when things seem to be going wrong.
 
Can I use the 50 amp spa panel and a 30 amp breaker in my electric panel. My system is a based on 30 amps. 30 amp Gfi breakers are way to expensive. Will my panel and myself still be protected.?

Thanks
 
bgarino said:
Can I use the 50 amp spa panel and a 30 amp breaker in my electric panel. My system is a based on 30 amps. 30 amp Gfi breakers are way to expensive. Will my panel and myself still be protected.?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Yes and absolutely. Your best bet is the Spa Panel that HomeDepot offers.

P-J
 
One more question, does the spa panel have to go on a dedicated circuit by code? Or could I wire it into the 30A 240V going to the garage which has its own sub panel and very little demand (garage door openers and lights). I would use a junction box right outside the main panel box.
 
-TH- said:
One more question, does the spa panel have to go on a dedicated circuit by code? Or could I wire it into the 30A 240V going to the garage which has its own sub panel and very little demand (garage door openers and lights). I would use a junction box right outside the main panel box.
Click to expand...
Personally, I would not hard wire the Spa Panel. I would use it as a plug in device to an existing outlet.

If you need to install a new outlet, you should pull a permit and then have the work inspected.

P-J
 
I just went through this, ended up with a dedicated GFCI breaker in the box. It was about $25 more then a spa panel, but it made my install much cleaner, and if/when I move It will be easier to remove. Good luck!
 
Ok thanks.

An even more economical solution I stumbled across would be to use an inline GFCI cable (30A 10gauge 4 conductor) that plugs into a dryer outlet and the other end would be hard wired into the control panel box. Does this sound ok? or NEC compliant?
 
-TH- said:
Ok thanks.

An even more economical solution I stumbled across would be to use an inline GFCI cable (30A 10gauge 4 conductor) that plugs into a dryer outlet and the other end would be hard wired into the control panel box. Does this sound ok? or NEC compliant?
Click to expand...


You need to be very careful when you choose a GFCI cable. Some are made specifically for equipment protection (xerox stuff) and not do it for the protection of people. Some of them trip with a current that is high enough to hurt or kill you - but - it does protect equipment.

Please do some research on the set trip value before you get one.

P-J
 
P-J said:
You need to be very careful when you choose a GFCI cable. Some are made specifically for equipment protection (xerox stuff) and not do it for the protection of people. Some of them trip with a current that is high enough to hurt or kill you - but - it does protect equipment.

Please do some research on the set trip value before you get one.

P-J
Click to expand...

Are there any 5ma in-line GFCI cables? I was considering buying the xerox cable that many people have, figuring that 10ma was acceptable for me, but with a 3 year old running around the house that I won't take the risk.

I know many people use spa panels, I'd prefer not too, I'd prefer something like that xerox cable, but with a 5ma trip. Everything I've come across is several hundred dollars though.

Why is this SO expensive? Just a matter of supply and demand, or is it very expensive to produce?
 
Swab said:
Are there any 5ma in-line GFCI cables? I was considering buying the xerox cable that many people have, figuring that 10ma was acceptable for me, but with a 3 year old running around the house that I won't take the risk.

I know many people use spa panels, I'd prefer not too, I'd prefer something like that xerox cable, but with a 5ma trip. Everything I've come across is several hundred dollars though.

Why is this SO expensive? Just a matter of supply and demand, or is it very expensive to produce?
Click to expand...
You are correct in that the required value is 0.05A (5ma) for human protection. The xerox cable is cheap because it is surplus stuff that vendors are unloading (and it does trip @ 10ma - way over the top for people protection).

I hope you find a plan that protects you and your family. If I were in you dilema, I'd use the Spa Panel and set it up as a portable plug in device.

But that's me.

Wishing you the best.

P-J
 
P-J said:
You are correct in that the required value is 0.05A (5ma) for human protection. The xerox cable is cheap because it is surplus stuff that vendors are unloading (and it does trip @ 10ma - way over the top for people protection).

I hope you find a plan that protects you and your family. If I were in you dilema, I'd use the Spa Panel and set it up as a portable plug in device.

But that's me.

Wishing you the best.

P-J
Click to expand...

Thanks again P-J.

One more question, in order to make the spa panel portable, I need a cable that plugs into an existing dryer 4-prong outlet that is about 15 feet away from where the spa panel will be. Can I make my own cord/plug combo? I haven't seen any plugs that don't already come with say 4 feet of cable already attached.
 
-TH- said:
Thanks again P-J.

One more question, in order to make the spa panel portable, I need a cable that plugs into an existing dryer 4-prong outlet that is about 15 feet away from where the spa panel will be. Can I make my own cord/plug combo? I haven't seen any plugs that don't already come with say 4 feet of cable already attached.
Click to expand...
Just take a piece of paper and do a trace of the outlet plug prong placement and the prong outlines. Take that to HomeDepot or lowes and ask them for (or find) a plug that matches it. They should have them in stock. (If not, an electrical supply place in your area.) All you need is the matching plug and you are good to do.

Hope this helps.

Edit: The trick is to do the add on using the existing outlet. No permit & no problem.
 
Sorry to thread hijack but this is right on point so something I'm doing. Pj sounds like you reccomend a "portable" spa panel? Just so I'm clear here's what I'm thinking.....

My brewery will be in basement adjacent to my dryer. So I just need a spa panel wired to a dryer plug. No problem that is a 30 amp breaker in my panel. I only plan on a single element running a once so 30 A is fine.
 
fpweeks said:
Sorry to thread hijack but this is right on point so something I'm doing. Pj sounds like you reccomend a "portable" spa panel? Just so I'm clear here's what I'm thinking.....

My brewery will be in basement adjacent to my dryer. So I just need a spa panel wired to a dryer plug. No problem that is a 30 amp breaker in my panel. I only plan on a single element running a once so 30 A is fine.
Click to expand...
That is absolutely correct. The 30A mains breaker protects the wiring. The GFCI panel protects you. BTW, it does not matter if your dryer outlet is a 3 or 4 prong outlet. There is a wiring method for both situations so that you have 120/240V available for your brewery (2 hots, neutral & ground). No problem.
 
If there isnt much on the garage sub-panel then mabey you could refeed the circuits in that panel from the main panel and use the existing 30 amp circuit for your rig. Its a lot less expencive to run 20 amp 125volt circuits.
 
MDHarris said:
If there isnt much on the garage sub-panel then mabey you could refeed the circuits in that panel from the main panel and use the existing 30 amp circuit for your rig. Its a lot less expencive to run 20 amp 125volt circuits.
Click to expand...
???
If the sub panel was properly set up and wired, there would be a single cable from the mains panel to the sub panel. The sub panel has its own circuit breaker setup.
 
P-J said:
???
If the sub panel was properly set up and wired, there would be a single cable from the mains panel to the sub panel. The sub panel has its own circuit breaker setup.
Click to expand...

I think what he was meaning is if 240 is being feed to the garage sub panel and then being split out to 120 for the small electrical feeds, you could feed the garage 120 from the main panel (the part about refeeding) and then use the subpanel already in place for 240 for the brewery (install the GFCI in this panel).
But in saying that (and I'm not an electrician so be patient ;)) I don't see why you would have to refeed the 120 from the main panel? Could a GFCI in the subpanel be used to feed the brewery from an existing 240V socket in the garage?
 
mattd2 said:
I think what he was meaning is if 240 is being feed to the garage sub panel and then being split out to 120 for the small electrical feeds, you could feed the garage 120 from the main panel (the part about refeeding) and then use the subpanel already in place for 240 for the brewery (install the GFCI in this panel).
Click to expand...
???
I do not have a clue what you are saying.

If the subpanel was (IS) properly wired from the mains panel, there is absolutely no need to run additional wiring from the mains panel to the garage. Perhaps his setup in the garage is a "butchered" setup and does not comply with NEC? I certainly do not envision that in any way shape or form.

P-J
 
mattd2 said:
...
But in saying that (and I'm not an electrician so be patient ;)) I don't see why you would have to refeed the 120 from the main panel? Could a GFCI in the subpanel be used to feed the brewery from an existing 240V socket in the garage?
Click to expand...
Ok... Instead of replying, you edited your post. No fair...

IMHO, the best option is to set up a Spa Panel as a plug in device for the existing 240V outlet in the garage. This way the building wiring is not altered in any way & does not require an electrician, permit or inspection. (If you alter the building wiring without a permit & inspection and s**t happens, your insurance sends you down to the deep mud pit. No coverage and out of luck.!)

BTW, getting a GFCI breaker for the mains panel or the sub panel could be very expensive ($150 +/- depending) where a Spa Panel will cost about $55 from HomeDepot. Wiring? I drew and have the diagramed plans. If that's the plan, I've made them available many times in many posts before and will do it again here if needed or wanted.

Another BTW: Setting up the Spa Panel allows you to have the GFCI breaker close to your brewery. When something happens that does not look or feel right, hitting the E-Stop is a no brainer. You would just do it. Now if you had to go 2 or 300 feet to reset it? You would never hit the E-Stop unless flames were --- Nevermind... I'm done.

Just do it your way..


P-J
 
What I am saying is that if the brewer must run an aditional 30 amp feed to the garage for the brewey, and the existing panel has a small enough load to mabey be handled by one or two 20 amp 125 volt circuits then he may come out cheaper to run one or two 125 volt circuits to refeed the existing load and use the existing 30 amp circuit to feed the new spa panel and the brewery. Without knowing what the existing load is you(P-J) and I can't comment on what he should do. If you had a 30 amp circuit feeding a panel that only ran a garage door opener and a 125volt outlet then why not refeed that circuit from the main panel and use the existing "properly installed" 30 amp circuit for the brewery?...

"BTW":If he refeeds the existing circuits then he can ditch the sub panel and use the spa panel, in the garage, where he needs it.
 
P-J said:
Ok... Instead of replying, you edited your post. No fair...

IMHO, the best option is to set up a Spa Panel as a plug in device for the existing 240V outlet in the garage. This way the building wiring is not altered in any way & does not require an electrician, permit or inspection. (If you alter the building wiring without a permit & inspection and s**t happens, your insurance sends you down to the deep mud pit. No coverage and out of luck.!)

BTW, getting a GFCI breaker for the mains panel or the sub panel could be very expensive ($150 +/- depending) where a Spa Panel will cost about $55 from HomeDepot. Wiring? I drew and have the diagramed plans. If that's the plan, I've made them available many times in many posts before and will do it again here if needed or wanted.

Another BTW: Setting up the Spa Panel allows you to have the GFCI breaker close to your brewery. When something happens that does not look or feel right, hitting the E-Stop is a no brainer. You would just do it. Now if you had to go 2 or 300 feet to reset it? You would never hit the E-Stop unless flames were --- Nevermind... I'm done.

Just do it your way..


P-J
Click to expand...

Hahaha, I swear work got in the way. I had edited it straight away but then someone came and bugged me! :D
Anyway, what you say does make the most sense, if the capaity is there in the wiring and mains/subpanel CB then wiring a spa panel as a "GFCI cord" makes the most sense, money and flexibility wise! And I wasn't really saying your way was not good, more trying to explain what MDHarris was trying to get across.
MDHarris - What would be the need to rewire the existing 120 to the garage? If it is only small loads (and they can be made sure they do not occur when brewing) then shouldn't they be able to stay in the subpanel aswell as the circuit for the brewery?
 
And just one more question: would changing out, for example, 20 amp CB for a 20 amp GFCI CB require the installation to be rechecked and recertified?
Just ask for completeness for other who consider doing this as it has no affect on me since I am outside of the NEC reach :D
 
mattd2 said:
And just one more question: would changing out, for example, 20 amp CB for a 20 amp GFCI CB require the installation to be rechecked and recertified?
Just ask for completeness for other who consider doing this as it has no affect on me since I am outside of the NEC reach :D
Click to expand...
Just changing the breaker is not a problem as there are no wiring additions or changes involved.
 
My fault! I missed the whole page about making a cord. I thaught a new circuit was going to be ran either way.
 

Similar threads

H
240v GFCI breaker vs inline GFCI?
2
Replies
54
Views
2K
Langerz
Langerz
S
New to Electric brewing
Replies
14
Views
1K
Exception13
Exception13
Wogman75
Electric Brew Panel Troubleshooting
Replies
29
Views
2K
Geezer-Glide
G
passedpawn
SS Brewtech eKettles and V3 panel vs ???
Replies
5
Views
1K
passedpawn
passedpawn
I
SS Brewtech InfuSSion Mash Tun Custom Heater
Replies
7
Views
802
Indian_villager
I

Latest posts

Back
Top