Bottle Sanitation w/ dishwasher

Quick question, does anyone sanitize their bottles using the dishwasher with the heat cycle on? I saw this in Palmer's book, and was thinking that it sounds easier than what I usually do, but I am somewhat hesitant to not use a sanitizing solution. Any thoughts? Personally, I hate sanitizing bottles, so anything to make it quicker and easier would be intruiging.

Thanks

I do, and the hot water in my house is as hot as it will go. I have yet to have any bottle sanitation issues. I also rinse and wash each bottle after it's used thoroughly.

See this experiment:

http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647

it shows, that dishwasher is useless with regard of sanitation. ClO2 is the best, and it is what I use now.

Piotr said:

See this experiment:

http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647

it shows, that dishwasher is useless with regard of sanitation. ClO2 is the best, and it is what I use now.

Click to expand...

My dishwasher has a sani-rinse cycle and is NSF certified to sanitize at 155 degrees. It will tell you if it 'failed' to sanitize properly for whatever reason.

As for the heated dry cycle, I wouldn't count on that at all and that experiment kinda proves it. I would like to see this done in a lab with a sani-rinse cycle though.

I might try putting my probe thermometer inside one of the bottles next time and see what temperatures it hits and for how long.

Piotr said:

See this experiment:

http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647

it shows, that dishwasher is useless with regard of sanitation. ClO2 is the best, and it is what I use now.

Click to expand...

Starxene, eh? Never heard of it.Star San is the the product they target toward homebrewers. Why not Starxene? Well, for one, it looks trickier to use: specific ph range required, addition of citric acid required, and err..um, if you let a bunch of it dry it it turns into an explosive. All good reasons I think I'll stick with Star San. :rockin:

I use the dishwasher every time I bottle with no detergent or sanitizing solution. I've probably bottled twenty 10-12 gallon batches and have never had an infection. It really depends on your dishwasher. My dishwasher doesn’t have a “sanitize” function, but does have “heated wash”, “heated rinse”, and “heated dry” functions. I called GE and asked what temp my dishwasher is capable of reaching and GE said 140dF (regardless of the input hot water temp.). Since sanitizing is not just about temperature, but about time AND temperature, I figured this was good enough, based on my knowledge of microbiology and sanitizing. Regarding the experiments, “sanitizing” doesn’t kill everything anyway (that’s called sterilization). The only things that sterilize are an autoclave and maybe an oven at certain temps. So, you could always get cultured growth from anything that “sanitizes”. The question is, what are the chances of it infecting your beer?... extremely low, in my experience, probably no more than taking a hydro sample at the end of fermentation.

If your dishwasher has any kind of “heated” cycle, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it on clean bottles. If I ever get an infection from what I believe was the bottles in my dishwasher, I’ll be sure to post it here. But for now, I’ll keep using it.

ajwillys said:

My dishwasher has a sani-rinse cycle and is NSF certified to sanitize at 155 degrees. It will tell you if it 'failed' to sanitize properly for whatever reason.

Click to expand...

155 degrees fahrenheit? or celcius? I really don't see 155F being very effective against bacteria. Since "sanitization" is usually associated with chemical disinfection and not heat, I'm guessing the dishwasher companies (or NSF) have determined a temperature/time combo that disinfects with the same effectiveness as certain types of chemical sanitizers.

MrFebtober said:

155 degrees fahrenheit? or celcius? I really don't see 155F being very effective against bacteria. Since "sanitization" is usually associated with chemical disinfection and not heat, I'm guessing the dishwasher companies (or NSF) have determined a temperature/time combo that disinfects with the same effectiveness as certain types of chemical sanitizers.

Click to expand...

There are 2 types of sanitizing methods, chemical and time/temperature. These definitions are set by... can't remember, EPA?, FDA?, NSF? IIRC, the method of determining sanitizing is if it kills 99.9% of E. coli. 180dF for 2 minutes completes this requirement. There is then a scale of time/temp (up to a certain time and down to a certain temp) that fits this definition. So, for example, 155dF for, say, 10 minutes (hypothetical) would also kill 99.9% of E. coli.

That's for the information. Wikipedia had no mention of mechanical sanitization.

menschmaschine said:

The question is, what are the chances of it infecting your beer?... extremely low, in my experience

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And thats it, young beer is quite immune to the bacteria. I know people who just wash the bottles with hot tap water, no sanitation whasoever and they also claim they never had any infection in the bottle.
BUT you know, I try to make TBBP (the best beer possible), so I try to apply best techniques on each stage. Maybe, due to good bottle sanitation beer will gain 1-2 points?

Piotr said:

And thats it, young beer is quite immune to the bacteria. I know people who just wash the bottles with hot tap water, no sanitation whasoever and they also claim they never had any infection in the bottle.
BUT you know, I try to make TBBP (the best beer possible), so I try to apply best techniques on each stage. Maybe, due to good bottle sanitation beer will gain 1-2 points?

Click to expand...

Not me, I try to make mediocre beer.

That does raise a good question though. Can your beer be "slightly" infected? I would think that if your beer begins an infection, it will get worse and more noticable with time, in that a microbe has been introduced to an environment in which it can survive, metabolize, and multiply. I've never noticed any infection-related flavors or consequences in any of my beer. (Of course, I've had other problems!)

menschmaschine said:

Can your beer be "slightly" infected?

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Of course it can. Microbes can spoil the beer a little, and then die due to cold storage, lack of nutrients etc. Or they can do their job so slowly that you will notice the effects only after several months.

Lastly I sent a beer to a competition, beer was excellent im my opinion, and I got feeedback - "too phenolic, probably from wild yeast infection"

menschmaschine said:

There are 2 types of sanitizing methods, chemical and time/temperature. These definitions are set by... can't remember, EPA?, FDA?, NSF? IIRC, the method of determining sanitizing is if it kills 99.9% of E. coli. 180dF for 2 minutes completes this requirement. There is then a scale of time/temp (up to a certain time and down to a certain temp) that fits this definition. So, for example, 155dF for, say, 10 minutes (hypothetical) would also kill 99.9% of E. coli.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is what I was getting out. I think its NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) that does it and the standard for residential dishwashers is NSF 184. I can't for the life of me figure out what exactly that means though. My dishwasher manual says it 'sanitizes by bringing the final rinse up to 155' but doesn't say for how long. Based on watching the dishwasher, (it has a timer on it) it looks like the sani-rinse cycle is 14 minutes.

Piotr said:

See this experiment:

http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647

it shows, that dishwasher is useless with regard of sanitation. ClO2 is the best, and it is what I use now.

Click to expand...

My Bosch dishwasher has a sanitize feature. The bottles are steamed for a long period of time at 161 degrees. Works like a champ for me. No detergent or jet dry is used.

This is the best way for me to sanitize two cases of bottles. For just a couple, Starsan is the quickest and easiest.

Piotr said:

See this experiment:

it shows, that dishwasher is useless with regard of sanitation.

Click to expand...

No, all it shows is that some guy in Modesto has a really crappy dishwasher.

My dishwasher, with "Sani-Clean" cycle, is the only method I've ever used for sanitizing bottles, with a 100% success rate. Thousands of bottles, never an infection. As long as you're putting clean bottles in, you'll get sanitized bottles out.

If I could fit my kegs in the dishwasher, I would.

I used to do it in the dishwasher, but it took longer than just sanitizing them with star san.
I used to run the sanitizer button and the heated dry. The cycles of the dishwasher took a good 30 to 45 minutes. Then letting them cool also was another 15 or so.

With a bottling tree sanitizing bottle went down to about 15 minutes with star san

i have never had any infection through the dishwasher either. Just used the rinsed cycle a couple times before I threw the bottles in to make sure it was nice and clean. (which also added to bottling time)

when I bottle I use a dishwasher although its a cheapy with no sanitize cycle. after cleaning the bottles by hand I place them in the dishwasher and add 3/4 oz of starsan. turn off the heat option(I have heard that heat breaks down starsan) and run it. never had a problem with that method. Never had a leak from the dishwasher either for those that are thinking the starsan might damage it.

mtbaesl said:

Personally, I hate sanitizing bottles, so anything to make it quicker and easier would be intruiging.

Thanks

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two words: Corny Kegs

The bottles I use for my homebrew are rinsed with hot water after use. Since I always pour the beer into a glass, I don't worry about backwash. Bottles that I get back from friends that try my beer are washed thoroughly with soap and hot water, then aggressively rinsed. On days that I bottle, I run all the bottles through my sink filled with warm water and a StarSan solution before putting them into the dishwasher. The dishwasher is a Bosch, and has a very handy sanitize cycle. It takes about 2 1/2 hours to run a full cycle with the sanitize option selected (2 hours for standard). My only concern is: would bottling the beer almost right after removing from the dishwasher be okay? I was concerned with thermal shock and preventing bottle bombs.