"It's a proprietary hop blend"

My guess is that he is in this business for the cash, rather than passion for beer. I've seen lots of that the last few years.

There's a brewpub not too far from me, and the head brewer isn't the talkative type- a bit standoffish. But he has a manager who is super friendly to offset this, and I often have seen her "rescue" him from customers when they get too talkative for his comfort. But you know they all love beer, they make very good beer, and other than the head brewer / owner being shy, they're thrilled to share their product. He's just not a talker. But his staff balances that out.

I think going to a brewery / brewpub, it is reasonable to expect passion, and a certain openness to discussing their product. If they just want to retail, that's fine, but you pay a premium to be in a brewpub, and most brewpubs I have been in aren't palaces, so gaining knowledge is a reasonable expectation of such an establishment. I would not desire to go to such a place, but I am lucky, we have tons of great beer places in my area. I have been in brewpubs in scores of cities, and I must say, the vast majority love to share and talk about their passion / profession.

Cyclman said:

My guess is that he is in this business for the cash, rather than passion for beer. I've seen lots of that the last few years.

There's a brewpub not too far from me, and the head brewer isn't the talkative type- a bit standoffish. But he has a manager who is super friendly to offset this, and I often have seen her "rescue" him from customers when they get too talkative for his comfort. But you know they all love beer, they make very good beer, and other than the head brewer / owner being shy, they're thrilled to share their product. He's just not a talker. But his staff balances that out.

I think going to a brewery / brewpub, it is reasonable to expect passion, and a certain openness to discussing their product. If they just want to retail, that's fine, but you pay a premium to be in a brewpub, and most brewpubs I have been in aren't palaces, so gaining knowledge is a reasonable expectation of such an establishment. I would not desire to go to such a place, but I am lucky, we have tons of great beer places in my area. I have been in brewpubs in scores of cities, and I must say, the vast majority love to share and talk about their passion / profession.

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I think that's a really good point. I can buy craft beer at any liquor store, take it home and drink it with family and friends. The brewery experience should offer some kind of added value, at least having someone who knows beer and is willing to engage in a little conversation. I don't expect them to give up the secret sauce, and I understand that the staff may be tied up on a busy night. But being approachable can encourage people to want to come back. Beer nerds are curious.

Breweries that offer tours often sate that curiosity, if they have the extra staff to do so. Sure, once you've seen a few conicals and bottling lines, you've seen them all. But it's the opportunity for visitors to ask questions about process, company history, etc. That's what makes tours interesting.

If you want to win over loyal customers you have to put a little effort into the social side. It's more than just the product.

It's a new brewpub. Do you know how much work goes into getting a brewpub going? I sudpect there may have been some problem that warranted his attention. He might have had some of them on his mind at the time. Who knows?

Cut him some slack and go back later and see if he is more talkative.

As far as his "proprietary blend" of hops, that just sounds *****y. He'll get farther along by being more open.

Gameface said:

If I walked into a spanking new brewery and they had twelve beers on tap I'd already be concerned. That's a lot of beer to put out there if when you started your new brewery you wanted to present your customers with the very best you had to offer.

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This x a million.

What ever happened to having 4 SOLID core beers that are the SAME
EVERY
SINGLE
TIME?

When you can do that, then it's time to add beers.

Now, every new brewery has 15 barrel-aged-sour-triple-dry-hopped-one-offs that are gross on a good day, and they haven't even figured out how to make a good 'normal' beer.


The day of reckoning is coming for all these wannabes and guys in it just for the money.
This pace just can't be sustained and places that suck are going to justifiably start going under.

doug293cz said:

Owners should be pleasant when they interact with customers. If they don't want to, or aren't capable of it, they should stay away from the customers. Part of any successful business is good PR (but not in the propaganda sense.)

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Didn't sound like he was rude, re-read his post. The owner just wouldn't tell him the type of hops in the IPA and didn't appear to care much for discussing their beers and disappeared quickly. He says, "the refusal to tell a customer (and I told him I was a homebrewer) the hops used in an IPA is what bothers me the most." Doesn't sound like the owner was being rude or disrespectful. He is under no obligation to tell anyone any part of his recipes other than if someone is asking if it has something they could be allergic to.

But that's all past the point, and I wasn't even commenting on the OP's posts at all, just how some people say things akin to, "I'd never go back again, let them go out of business" and I'm saying "Over that!?? Geez what a sensitive bunch to give such advice".

You're obviously all entitled to feel how you feel, I just think in this instance there didn't appear any strong reason to ban the darn place.


Rev.

Homercidal said:

As far as his "proprietary blend" of hops, that just sounds *****y. He'll get farther along by being more open.

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I just don't get this mentality. Nothing against you specifically. For more than a decade I've heard and read about HB'ers whining that "Brewery X was too *****ey to reveal what malts, hops, yeast, metrics, they use for Beer C."

Why are breweries expected to reveal this?

No one walks into KFC and expects them to reveal their recipe. Lots of folks have tried to emulate it tho'.

GilaMinumBeer said:

I just don't get this mentality. Nothing against you specifically. For more than a decade I've heard and read about HB'ers whining that "Brewery X was too *****ey to reveal what malts, hops, yeast, metrics, they use for Beer C."

Why are breweries expected to reveal this?

No one walks into KFC and expects them to reveal their recipe. Lots of folks have tried to emulate it tho'.

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I wouldn't expect a brewery to give me the full recipe specs on any of their beers (though it is nice when they do), but it seems generally appropriate to include at least the kinds of hops, specialty grains, and yeast (if yeast character is part of the flavor profile) in the product description.

Much like wine, a huge part of the beer drinking experience for many people is picking out the different flavor characterisitics imparted by the different ingredients. It seems that most wineries will freely tell you what sort of grapes are in the wine, and most breweries will freely tell you what hop combination and specialty grains are in their beer. If it's not on the packaging, it's usually on their website.

I wouldn't classify refusing to reveal hops used in an IPA as "*****ey" so much as highly unusual, and probably not a great business practice for this industry.

hunter_la5 said:

It seems that most wineries will freely tell you what sort of grapes are in the wine, and most breweries will freely tell you what hop combination and specialty grains are in their beer.

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But do you think, if they had it to do again, that the wine industry would reveal the grape if the style descriptors were something else?

Lets say wine took a different spin. And instead of being described by region and grape they used more abstract names like beer does (kinda hard to do since wine is more basic). I think lips would be tight regarding what grape/ grape blend is used. But there would be some who would discuss openly.

And yes, "most" breweries do discuss what goes into their product. And that is commendable. I just don't think they should feel obligated to disclose.

GilaMinumBeer said:

I just don't think they should feel obligated to disclose.

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I would agree with that. I just think it's poor business practice if you're a brewery producing anything but macrolager. Your hop-combination is a selling point, not a trade secret, generally.

Not worth getting bent out of shape over, though. The IPA tastes terrible, as the OP says. Just order something else.

It is kind of funny the different ways people react. I have a local brewpub that really embraces the homebrew aspect of beer. Enough so, that the last 2 times they have brewed bigger beers, they've invited the homebrewers to bring in a bucket or keg and get 5 gallons of the last runnings to take home, brew something up, then bring it back and share with the group. The brewer there is always eager to discuss his beers, good or bad, ingredients, what made them good and even what made them bad.

I'm certainly not on the "Take your business elsewhere" wagon, but I do find it odd that the discussion went that abruptly. I mean being a brewpub, or any restaurant for that matter, wouldn't you want people to take an interest in what you are serving. Even if he was having a bad day, at least say, "I'm tied up right now, but hopefully we can talk next time."

hunter_la5 said:

I would agree with that. I just think it's poor business practice if you're a brewery producing anything but macrolager. Your hop-combination is a selling point, not a trade secret, generally.

Not worth getting bent out of shape over, though. The IPA tastes terrible, as the OP says. Just order something else.

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I just don't see why. The final product is the selling point, IMO, not just the hops. It's a culmination of how the ingredients are combined and prepared.

Just like the seasoning used on a cut of beef is not the only selling point for a steak. But no-one labels the chef at "Sutēki basho" *****ey for saying the seasoning blend is a house secret.

GilaMinumBeer said:

I just don't see why. The final product is the selling point, IMO, not just the hops. It's a culmination of how the ingredients are combined and prepared.

Just like the seasoning used on a cut of beef is not the only selling point for a steak. But no-one labels the chef at "Sutēki basho" *****ey for saying the seasoning blend is a house secret.

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Didn't say it was the only selling point; I said it was A selling point.
I'm much more likely to buy an IPA that is listed as having a combination of hops I know I enjoy than a bottle that just says "IPA" on it and nothing else.

Also said it wasn't *****ey, just a questionable practice.

I don't think beer is comparable to KFC or steaks. People eat KFC and steaks because they taste good, but nobody is sitting there analyzing all of the flavor characteristics with the same scrutiny as beer snobs tasting beer.

I've never heard of people attending fried-chicken clubs and having a chicken-tasting party, in which people make detailed entries in log-books about the seasoning notes they picked up in different buckets of chicken.

In a steak, the steak is the star of the show, and the seasoning is meant to subtly enhance things. In beer, the hops are very frequently the star of the show. That's why there are so many dry IPAs where the malt profile is barely if even detectible.

Considering how much craft beer nerds obsess over hops (or at least the "Hop-Heads"), it seems like you're limiting youself by NOT advertising what hops are used.

hunter_la5 said:

I've never heard of people attending fried-chicken clubs and having a chicken-tasting party, in which people make detailed entries in log-books about the seasoning notes they picked up in different buckets of chicken.

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http://thefriedchickenclub.webs.com/

GilaMinumBeer said:

http://thefriedchickenclub.webs.com/

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I recant everything I said. Gila is right and I am wrong. I'd go eat crow, but first I have to clean up all this egg on my face.

hunter_la5 said:

I recant everything I said. Gila is right and I am wrong. I'd go eat crow, but first I have to clean up all this egg on my face.

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Not saying you are wrong. I just don't agree with the opinion, or mindset that a producer is obligated to disclose anything short of labeling requirements or health/safety concerns.

If the OP asked if the beer has Hopi hops, citing he's allergic to Hopi, and the brewer shrugged it off as a "proprietary blend" then I'd agree, he's a ******.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Not saying you are wrong.

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But you invalidated my point about fried chicken clubs not being a thing. If you invalidate even the smallest of my points, then you invalidate my entire argument. That's how internet arguing works.

I admit defeat.

hunter_la5 said:

But you invalidated my point about fried chicken clubs not being a thing. If you invalidate even the smallest of my points, then you invalidate my entire argument. That's how internet arguing works.

I admit defeat.

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Umm apparently you dont know how internet arguing works. Never admit defeat, even in the face of overwhelming evidence and reasonable arguments against your case! Being a mature, rational adult will get you nowhere

m00ps said:

Being a mature, rational adult ....

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Hunter? Bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

This kind of reminds me of BBQ rub recipes. If someone says "secret ingredients" then people think they are being a jerk or rude.

pretzelb said:

This kind of reminds me of BBQ rub recipes. If someone says "secret ingredients" then people think they are being a jerk or rude.

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True, but it's easy to give a good version of it, without giving the real recipe. I do a BBQ rub that people have asked me about (which actually isn't measured by volume), I do it by sight and taste, but none the less, I always say, the base is half paprika and half brown sugar, depending on the container you are using. Then I list out the other ingredients. I even give out my "secret" which is a little cinnamon in the mix.

I guess in the end, I wouldn't think someone is a jerk for not telling me. I would think it's funny though because the main impact of an IPA is the hops. It's not really giving out a recipe to say, "I bitter with magnum then add Citra for late additions. Sounds like the guy just wasn't in the mood to talk. Seems today in the world of instant access social media, everyone gets pissed because you don't have time to sit and chat.

As I said above, the brewpub I go to, I'm actually a good acquaintance of the brewmaster there. Brewmaster is a busy job. There are times I've stopped in to say hi and he just doesn't have time. Don't forget, this is like them stopping in where you work and asking you to chat about what you are doing. Now multiply that by how many people come to the restaurant and want to chat with him about his beer. Is it a great way to be, no, but at the same time, it can be understandable if you think about it.

hunter_la5 said:

I recant everything I said. Gila is right and I am wrong. I'd go eat crow, but first I have to clean up all this egg on my face.

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LOVE the new av!!!

Clonefan94 said:

True, but it's easy to give a good version of it, without giving the real recipe. I do a BBQ rub that people have asked me about (which actually isn't measured by volume), I do it by sight and taste, but none the less, I always say, the base is half paprika and half brown sugar, depending on the container you are using. Then I list out the other ingredients. I even give out my "secret" which is a little cinnamon in the mix.

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My secret ingredient changes. Sometimes it's cinnamon, sometimes it's tea (English breakfast blend), sometimes it's cocoa, and sometimes it's instant coffee.

Under no circumstances is a Brewer/Brewery required to tell you anything about his process or ingredients.

I have met a huge number of Brewers, both commercial, craft and home, some of them will give you their recipe, some will talk shop and others only want to know if you are going to finish the beer and leave. I have tried to talk shop with some that have no interest and leave it at that. There are others that know I'm in the process of opening my own brewery that think I'm going to steal their recipes (and some of them have actually taken my recipes). Personalities are a thing we all have to learn to deal with. I look at it this way, if they don't want to discuss their beers, that is up to them, if they do, then great! As for my recipes, I create everyone of them, I'll talk process and ingredients with anyone that wants to know. I'm not going to think they are going to steal my recipe, because they will be brewing on different equipment, under different circumstances and most likely different amounts anyway, so they may get close, but they will never actually match mine perfectly and I'm good with that.

slym2none said:

LOVE the new av!!!

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He loves kittens. It's a thing with him.

CA_Mouse said:

Under no circumstances is a Brewer/Brewery required to tell you anything about his process or ingredients.

I have met a huge number of Brewers, both commercial, craft and home, some of them will give you their recipe, some will talk shop and others only want to know if you are going to finish the beer and leave. I have tried to talk shop with some that have no interest and leave it at that. There are others that know I'm in the process of opening my own brewery that think I'm going to steal their recipes (and some of them have actually taken my recipes). Personalities are a thing we all have to learn to deal with. I look at it this way, if they don't want to discuss their beers, that is up to them, if they do, then great! As for my recipes, I create everyone of them, I'll talk process and ingredients with anyone that wants to know. I'm not going to think they are going to steal my recipe, because they will be brewing on different equipment, under different circumstances and most likely different amounts anyway, so they may get close, but they will never actually match mine perfectly and I'm good with that.

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I guess that was my point.

I've walked into places where the brewer sat down next to me and poured us both a beer, talked shop with me, and then gave me his card and his email address, and stayed in touch. Actually, more than several come to think of it, and we really have stayed in touch from time to time. I can think of at least 5, off the top of my head. And some of these breweries are doing quite well (GABF winners and such).

I've walked into other tap rooms where I mention I like a certain beer, and if the brewer is around he might talk a bit and smile and nod.

Others have blown me off completely.

Interestingly, the GABF winners are in group #1, with a few in group #2. Some of the ones who have blown me off completely have had some of the worst beers, but not all of them.

Just like all people are different, all brewers and businesses are different. Brewers tend to be a friendly bunch who love to talk shop with anybody who will listen- at least in the US. There are a few German brewers who are more reticent- but not all. One talked my ear off after finding out I brew and used to live in the same town he did back in Germany.

Mouse, when you open, can I be a guest brewer? I wouldn't brew, but I can clean a mashtun and rock rubber boots like few others.

I brewed with the "proprietary hop blend," and my beer sucked too. Please stop asking about it.

There are so many things we can add to beer to make it bad. Why must we discuss them? Alright, stop begging. Here's a few:
Jelly
Toe jelly
Naval jelly
Air Force jelly
(Pretty much all jelly)
Squashed bugs
Squashed squirrels
Squashed sasquatches
(Pretty much all squashed stuff)
Need I go on?

Maybe its better to ask about successes. Seems people are reluctant to get all bubbly and excited to talk about their failures.

Yooper said:

Mouse, when you open, can I be a guest brewer? I wouldn't brew, but I can clean a mashtun and rock rubber boots like few others.

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Sure you can Yoop! I'll actually start brewing commercially after the first of the year for another brewery. This will help me get my seed money for my barrel program. I'll let you know when you can share a brew day with me soon.

Whenever I taste (or make) a crap IPA I tell everyone it's Simcoe, Amarillo and Citra hops and they suck it down like lemonade.

Now I'm gonna say Nelson Sauvin and Mosaic just to prove I'm better than them, and so i don't have to pay so much for hops anymore.

(Seriously- true story- local brewery has an AWFUL in all caps IPA that now has distribution. I was at the brewery trying to decide if I was willing to wait in line to argue that they should give me something else, or just chug this one for effect and buy something else, when the brewer walked up. I asked him how he got that "signature" taste from Summit hops, when all I could taste was harsh bitterness and onions. His answer -"you're using too much!"...

But I wasn't asking for homebrew advice, I was talking about HIS beer!)

Singletrack said:

Maybe its better to ask about successes. Seems people are reluctant to get all bubbly and excited to talk about their failures.

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People love to talk about their successes. If they brew dynamite beer, they'll want to shout it from the mountaintop. (Yooper's group #1.) When they're not so successful, they won't be so inclined to talk about it. That's how people are--I can't blame them.

I was at a new brewery recently, and their beers were a mixed bag. A couple were stellar; the rest so-so. The brewmaster asked what I thought of the flight. I accentuated the positive and told him how much I enjoyed the two good ones. He didn't ask for my thoughts on the others and I didn't offer.

Just a comment regarding successes.

This bartender said their IPA is their best selling beer. So, they're obviously not embarrassed about it. And when I asked the brewer about it, I, in no way, suggested I was unhappy with it. So, I don't think it's a case of not wanting to talk about a bad beer.

And to be honest, if it's their best-selling beer, it may not even be a bad beer... I may just hate it. But, then again, this thread wasn't meant to criticize their beer anyhow, it was meant to hear people's opinions on my interaction with the brewer.

Yooper said:

Interestingly, the GABF winners are in group #1, with a few in group #2. Some of the ones who have blown me off completely have had some of the worst beers, but not all of them.

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What do you think is the story there?

pretzelb said:

This kind of reminds me of BBQ rub recipes. If someone says "secret ingredients" then people think they are being a jerk or rude.

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BBQ rub - jerk

I see what you did there!

MattyIce said:

What do you think is the story there?

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I think they know that their beers suck, and don't want to hear it from someone who can tell them that.

Their beers might suck for reasons not their own- say, the owners won't invest in a decent water source, or buy equipment to use grain and not extract (yes, quite a few brewpubs are extract brewing, just it's "easier"), or something like that.

If I was a professional and putting out sub-par product, I sure wouldn't want a BJCP judge and knowledgeable brewer to sit and critique it.

I don't know many pro brewers but those that I have met seem to like to talk about their craft .. I guess sorta like a woodworker might talk about a latest creation or new tool. My approach has always been a humble one .. "Yeah, I brew at home and I think I make good beer, but I'm trying to make great beer." A recent conversation with a brew pub owner revealed his knowledge about both beer and coffee. He suggested that since coffee extracts oils at 205 degrees or less, but bitterness above 205, he does something like a hop stand with coffee in his coffee porter. He puts fresh grounds in below 205 as the beer is cooling and steeps them for 15 to 20 minutes. In fairness, I had asked him about a beer of his that I really liked. I'm not sure that I would bother to ask about a style of his that I did not like - especially if I think I already make a better beer in that style.

I know lots of people say that they're in no way obligated to share their specific ingredients, but I think that goes against everything that beer culture has been about for so long. Not only is a good beer just as much about process as ingredients, it's also about equipment. Successful beers are also not necessarily about how good it is, but about the culture surrounding the brewery. It's the pr and advertisement that will often make a beer successful.

Yooper said:

I think it's that he knows it's not good, and doesn't want to discuss it at all with people.

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I agree. But why would a brewer continue to tap a beer he knows/suspects isn't going to be enjoyed by his clientele? Especially if it's one of the go-to quaffs in his establishment. Had it been me as the owner, I would have said something like, "Yeah, I know it isn't that great. It was kind of experimental and we're working on a new recipe. Sorry you don't like it. Here, have a glass of something else on the house." Otherwise, it sounds to me like he's got a gun pointed at his foot...

GHBWNY said:

I agree. But why would a brewer continue to tap a beer he knows/suspects isn't going to be enjoyed by his clientele? Especially if it's one of the go-to quaffs in his establishment. Had it been me as the owner, I would have said something like, "Yeah, I know it isn't that great. It was kind of experimental and we're working on a new recipe. Sorry you don't like it. Here, have a glass of something else on the house." Otherwise, it sounds to me like he's got a gun pointed at his foot...

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The brewer just sunk a bunch of $$ into that batch. He probably weighed his decision between "Should I just dump it and lose all that money?" vs. "Should I serve it and try to recoup some of my investment?"

He chose the latter, hoping that it won't hurt his brewery's rep. But it could be a shot in the foot.

MaxStout said:

The brewer just sunk a bunch of $$ into that batch. He probably weighed his decision between "Should I just dump it and lose all that money?" vs. "Should I serve it and try to recoup some of my investment?"

He chose the latter, hoping that it won't hurt his brewery's rep. But it could be a shot in the foot.

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Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

GHBWNY said:

Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

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Yep, that's the risk. He's damned either way. Not an enviable position to be in, with that kind of money left on the table.

GHBWNY said:

Or option #3 -- Keep serving a bad-tasting beer in spite of the investment, and drive customers away from his establishment and his [potentially] good beers.

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Not always entirely up to the brewer. Many have partners, running other aspects of the brewery, that have a say regarding product.