Can you make a starter from dry yeast?

OK I read John Palmer's book "How to Brew." He recommends "X" amount of yeast cells per "X" gravity wort. Obviously the higher the gravity, the more cells he recommends pitching. Unless I misunderstood, he seems to be talking about liquid yeast only when making a starter. My question is, can you make a starter with rehydrated dry yeast, to boost your cell count, or would you just use more packets of that dry yeast to get the same effect?

I read through the link silverzero posted, and I don't think most of the contents are correct, except for "dry yeast, no starter. period."

Yeast manufacturers go through a lot of effort to make sure their yeast is ready to start fermentation immediately. Pitching the yeast into a starter will just deplete their reserves before the "main event."

Given that dry yeast usually costs about half as much as liquid yeast, and has twice as many cells, it makes more sense to me to just properly rehydrate and then pitch two packets instead of one.

Nateo said:

I read through the link silverzero posted, and I don't think most of the contents are correct, except for "dry yeast, no starter. period."

Yeast manufacturers go through a lot of effort to make sure their yeast is ready to start fermentation immediately. Pitching the yeast into a starter will just deplete their reserves before the "main event."

Given that dry yeast usually costs about half as much as liquid yeast, and has twice as many cells, it makes more sense to me to just properly rehydrate and then pitch two packets instead of one.

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I agree with Nateo that it may be easier in the long run to pitch more than one packet of dry yeast. However, I can't think of one single reason why making a starter with dry yeast would be a bad idea. Sure, all you need to do is rehydrate and pitch that's one of the benifits of dry yeast. But, where is it written that dry yeast are genetically programmed to self destruct after they eat thier first meal upon rehydration? Granted, it is not neccesarry to make a starter with dry yeast IF you already have enough cells to satisfy your pitching rate. If you need more cells, make a starter. The yeast will complete their life cycle as usual, build up more reserves and settle out. At this point it can be pitched to a 5 gallon batch of beer. Many people use dry yeast and havest from the fermentor and repitch. If that works, so will a starter.

From White and Zainasheff's "Yeast" pg. 133: "Many experts suggest that placing dry yeast in a starter just depletes the cells reserves that the yeast manufacturer tries to build into their products. For dry yeast do a proper rehydration in tap water; do not make a starter."

The book isn't annotated, it just has references by chapter, so I'm not sure exactly which microbiology book he's quoting.

Much appreciated all!

I have another quick question. If using more than one packet of dry yeast, would I multiply the amount water used for rehydrating or just use the original 1 cup of warm water with the multiple packets of yeast?

Jordan71017 said:

I have another quick question. If using more than one packet of dry yeast, would I multiply the amount water used for rehydrating or just use the original 1 cup of warm water with the multiple packets of yeast?

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Follow the manufacturer's recommendations for how much water to use. Generally speaking, you rehydrate yeast in 10x its weight in water. 1L weighs 1kg. So if you have 10g of yeast you need 100ml of water.

2 packs = Safale US-05 = $7.50 at Northern Brewers

Starter - 1 pack 3.75 + 1 pound DME 4.99 = $8.74
If you already have dme for 1.5L = approx $5.50

Is that enough of a savings to make it worthwhile??

This is great info everybody using dry yeast should read:

Dr Clayton Cone the Yeast Guru from Lallemand had an interesting discussion with Dan Litermann on the Homebrewers Digest ( hbd.org ) about rehydrating BACK IN 2000 .

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Subject: Yeast Q's- Dan Listerman- Dr. Cone
Date: 2000-04-14 20:56:55 GMT
From: Dan Listermann <[email protected]>
Subject: Yeast Hydration, Infusion Mashing and England

My question to Dr. Cone regards yeast rehydration. All the packages of
yeast contain instructions for rehydration yet they all ferment just fine
without it. I have to believe that such a procedure may be theoretically
beneficial, however it would seem to be margionally usefull at least on a
homebrew scale.

I own a home brew shop and a very common phone call is the " My beer is not
fermenting." problem. I go through the list of potential causes ( plastic
bucket lid leaks, too cold, ect.) About twice a week the caller will
indicate that he rehydreated the yeast. This is a strong signal that the
yeast has been damaged and will need to be replaced. I have come to the
conclusion that, since rehydration is not necessary to ferment beer
properly and there is a strong chance that the yeast will be damaged in a
botched rehydration, it is not desirable to recommend such a proceedure.
Just how important is rehydration and is it worth the risk?

Dan Listermann [email protected] [email protected]

Dan,
I appreciate your dilemma It is a universal problem for those that market
Active Dry Yeast.

Let me give you some facts regarding rehydration and you can decide for
yourself where you want to compromise.
Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature. All of
them range between 95 F to 105F. Most of them closer to 105F. The dried
yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly
seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is
reconstituting its cell wall structure.

As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F
the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell.
The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 - 105 F, there is
100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60%
dead cells.

The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present.
The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is
ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used.
Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 - 1.0% yeast
extract

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast
cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic
materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast
normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right
in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is
properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of
the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or
must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30
minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and
trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth
cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is
rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is
not immediatly add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of
that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the
rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort.
Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite
mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to
produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by
adding, in encrements, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated
yeast.

Many times we find that warm water is added to a very cold container that
drops the rehydrating water below the desired temperature.

Sometimes refrigerated, very cold, dry yeast is added directly to the warm
water with out giving it time to come to room temperature. The initial
water intering the cell is then cool.

How do many beer and wine makers have successful fermentations when they
ignore all the above? I believe that it is just a numbers game. Each gram
of Active Dry Yeast contains about 20 billion live yeast cells. If you
slightly damage the cells, they have a remarkable ability to recover in the
rich wort. If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per
gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

The manufacturer of Active Dry Beer Yeast would be remiss if they offered
rehydration instructions that were less than the very best that their data
indicated.

One very important factor that the distributor and beer maker should keep
in mind is that Active Dry Yeast is dormant or inactive and not inert, so
keep refrigerated at all times. Do not store in a tin roofed warehouse
that becomes an oven or on a window sill that gets equally hot.

Active Dry Yeast looses about 20% of its activity in a year when it is
stored at 75 F and only 4% when refrigerated.

The above overview of rehydration should tell you that there is a very best
way to rehydrate. It should also tell you where you are safe in adapting
the rehydration procedure to fit your clients.

Clayton Cone.

Disclaimer: I am no expert.

I always make a "mini-starter" if I'm using dry yeast, by also adding a bit of sugar (sometimes plain table sugar, honey, or cooled wort) in the water in which I'm rehydrating, and it seems to help with the initial growth rate.

I also let it sit for longer (maybe 30 mins), as it has plenty of food until it's pitched for good.

Unless someone tells me I should not, it has always worked perfectly, and the primary fermentation is usually complete in 3-4 days depending on the gravity.

Thanks a lot everyone!

unionrdr said:

I've used the 7g cooper's ale yeast packets every time so far. Pitching dry was the least vigorous. I tried a 1.5C starter with 1/4C DME for it from 3.5-6 hours for a 1.050 wort. It needed a blow off by early morning.
I pitched said yeast into a 75F starter. That 50-60% attrition rate is total horse hockey. And using 2tsp of dextrose in the same amount of water worked nearly as well as the small starter.
So dry yeast can def take it with out dying in large numbers,or becoming less viable. I don't know about their tests,but mine prove otherwise. Besides the fact that that "proof" was from nearly 12 years ago...

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that book came out last year

what proof to do you have aside from anecdotal evidence? Have you done scientific studies and counted with a microscope to see how much yeast survive? Have you done side by side comparisons? It doesn't take much to ferment beer so just because you had a finished product doesn't mean it was the best method.

No one claims it won't ferment and make beer but to dismiss professional studies because you have made beer otherwise isn't an accurate reason to dismiss expert opinion.

unionrdr said:

These are things I've actually done,not just read somewhere...

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+1 Can't beat hands on experience. That's why we have a forum where we can share information and expand on existing knowledge.

60% attrition figure is associated with rehydrating at 60° or pitching dry- which you even said yourself wasn't as effective when pitching dry.

again no one is saying the yeast won't work

If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

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If it works for you fine, but my issue is with you using a few personal anecdotes to tell a newcomer that the professional consensus is crap and should be ignored.

unionrdr said:

The problem I have is when people don't believe my own,"more than a few instances" of something that worked for me. I usually pitch into a starter or re-hydrate solution at 75F anyway. So by their own findings,less attrition. All I know is,it works. If you don't believe me,then try it for yourself,& you'll see. I do it all the time,& a scientist is not a brewer. Quite a different thing.

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how do you know the yeast performed as optimally without some sort of controlled test, even if just 2 side by side batches?

short of brewing two batches made from same wort with one yeast rehydrated and one from a starter or doing a cell count I don't get what you are asking to try for myself?

terrapinj said:

If it works for you fine, but my issue is with you using a few personal anecdotes to tell a newcomer that the professional consensus is crap and should be ignored.

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I agree.

If you start with 230b cells, kill off 60%, that still leaves you with 92b cells, which is just shy of a smack pack, or even with a smack-pack that's sat on the shelf for a week or two.

How many of us have just pitched a single smack pack into wort, and had it ferment reasonably well? I know I did all the time when I first started brewing, but I make better beer (to my taste) when observing proper pitching rates.

The fact that it makes beer isn't in question. The issue is whether or not you're making the best beer possible.

I trust Dr. Cone knows more about yeast than I, an average homebrewer, do. Not saying scientists don't make mistakes, but this is basic stuff any microbiologist who works for a yeast company should be able to evaluate.