Fast Lacto & Brett

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Sixbillionethans

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I thought I'd post a quick blurb on today's brewday. I'm doing a tandem fermentation with Lactobacillus on 2/3 of batch for 24-48hrs and Brettanomyces Lambicus on the other 1/3, then combining. I haven't seen anyone post something like this, so it might be of interest.

I originally thought this approach was sacrilege, but I'm finding evidence that most craft brewers are making their sour beers with a fast all-lactobacillus "primary" fermentation followed by inoculation with brewers yeast. Raj Apte has some good info on this method on his site. The only wrinkle I'm adding is to combine the lacto ferment with an all-brett ferment. No saccharomyces at all.

Recipe based on one from Wild Brews that was based on Cuvee de Tomme. Toned down the OG a bit (1.072 down from 1.087) to mellow it out a bit and allow possible addition of cherries later. Recipe calls for a long fermentation with WY3278. I'm trying to replicate this in a much shorter time.

Basic Outline:
1. Standard mash
2. Combined runnings into main kettle to mix, split 1/3 volume into 2nd kettle
- Main kettle: boiled for 90 minutes w/o hops, chill, transfer to MT and pitch Lactobacillus WY5335 @ 120F, cover liquid w/ plastic wrap and purge airspace w/ CO2. I've done some sour mashes, and the smell of commercial lactobacillus was very similar to the sour mashes I've done (similarly awful). Ferment for 12-36 hours (check sourness), then transfer to kettle, heat to just below boiling (denature lacto), chill to 75 & add to primary fermenter
- Small kettle, boil for 90 minutes w/ hops, chill, transfer to primary fermenter, pitch Brett WY5526, ferment @ 74F.
3. Combine & ferment combo for 1-2 weeks until gravity has dropped to 1.015ish.
4. Transfer to secondary on top of 1oz of oak cubes. Age 2-3 months and bottle.

Updated Status (12/24/09)
1. Lacto fermentation is at 85F. Gravity dropped 1 pt to 1.064. Taste was sour, but not overly sour. No huge stink yet, and nothing photograph-worthy. Will give it another day.
2. Brett L fermentation went fast & furious for 24 hours, but has slowed considerably. Level too low in carboy to check gravity easily. Temp steady around 76F.

Updated Status (12/26/09)
1. Lacto fermentation down to 65F. Gravity dropped 3 pts to 1.061. Scummy looking foam developing on surface, horrible smell. Clean, tart, sour taste (when I got past the smell).
2. Brett L fermentation was pretty done looking, but I did not check gravity. Temp steady.
3. Drained lacto fermentation into brew kettle, brought to 10 min boil, chilled, added to primary fermenter.
4. Combined fermentation going strong after 12 hours. Reached very high krausen, but has since dropped a little bit.

Updated Status (12/28/09)
Krausen dropping slightly, so I added my sugars tonight. I don't know the behavior of this yeast, so unsure if the late sugar addition (vs. kettle addition) was necessary or not.

Updated Status (12/31/09)
1. The sugar addition blew the top on my airlock on 12/29. Brett L during a primary ferment gives this ginormous krausen that looks like the head on a nitro stout. Crazy stuff.
2. Did a gravity check on 12/29 and it was down to 1.020 and still bubbling away. Taste was pleasingly sour, with some good fruitiness from the Brett L fermentation. High hopes for this one.
3. Seems to have pretty well finished as of 12/30. Will leave it until weekend, then determine whether to rack onto 5# of cherries or age as is.

Updated Status (1/4/10)
Transferred and had to move to a cooler spot (primary fermenter & heater needed for another batch).
- Gravity had stuck @ 1.020. Hmmm. I've heard Brett does not display super-attenuation when used as a primary yeast. We'll see what happens.
- Flavor was a little less promising than before...more leathery and smoky with an almost meaty aroma (I've read about this).

Updated Status (1/13/10)
- Racked onto 5# of tart cherries (local, frozen) on 1/7. Gravity at time was holding at ~1.020. Held temp @ 76-80F.
- Checked gravity on 1/9, had dropped to 1.021. Flavor was promising. Tart, with fruitiness from the cherries. Airlock totally still, no bubbles.
- Moved to cold cellar (45F) to age until a keg opens up.

Tasting Notes (1/24/10)
Appearance
- Deep reddish brown, hazy in color. Not brilliantly clear.

Aroma
- No huge aroma. What is there is slightly funky, but honestly not as complex as I expected.
- Tart cherries in nose, with some malt. Increases with temperature (obviously) to a nice aroma.
- Just not really funky at all. Could easily have been an ale yeast.

Taste
- Tart, but not sour. Fruity, but not overly sweet.
- For a big and dark beer, this is suprisingly refreshing and light in mouthfeel. Although FG is too high, it doesn't feel heavy.
- The tartness definitely compliments the cherries. I wouldn't describe it as being "sour", so lactic fermentation could have been much more aggressive.
- Slight dryness/tannins from the oak, but only slight. Could easily be missed.
- Hop bitterness is just about balanced…between tartness & hops in mini-boil, it came out ok.


Lessons (Updated 1/13)
- The fast lactic ferment worked well enough. Based on the sourness achieved, and how sour I like beers, I'd do it on 100% of the batch or figure out a way to hold hot temps longer.
- 100% Brett fermentations are straightforward enough. Need a little more time to get the starter going, but normal after that.
- Jury still out on the Brett Lambicus.
- I think I way underpitched and that may have contributed to lower levels of attenuation. FG will likely be 1.018ish, where I would have like 1.010-1.012 to bring out tartness.

Overall Lessons (Updated 1/24)
- This was an experimental brew, where I wanted to learn about lactic fermentations and all-brett fermentations. I learned quite a bit.
1) Lactic fermentations:
I could have done much more. I wouldn't describe the beer as being "sour". A drier beer would have been more sour.
Either 100% lactic fermentation, or just longer fermentation (would require additional temp control, especially since I fermented in cold basement)
Although it smelled like absolute crap, it makes for a very "clean" sourness. Very little funkiness. I've heard pedio is the funkier lactic producer.
2) Brettanomyces Lambicus
Yeast package smelled like tart cherry pie, and fermentation generated some crazy airlock smells, but it produces a relatively basic beer.
Could be mistaken for an ale yeast.
My cellcount was low, which could likely have contributed to a high FG.

- This is an enjoyable beer. Heck, for all the risks I took, it could have been a dumper. But it's not great, so my fast lacto and all-brett techniques have a way to go.
- This same approach could have been nice with a saison yeast.
 
This does sound very interesting. Please keep us posted!

In the world of sour brewing, "sacrilege" shouldn't even be in the vocabulary. :) If it produces a good beer, then it works. If it doesn't, then try something else next time.
 
I have a berliner weisse fermented with lacto and Brett L. It isn't quite as sour as I would like, but the brett character is excellent and the beer is a great drinker.

Once I get it more sour, this could be my ideal berliner weisse.
 
Lacto + Brett (any strain) = Awesome. I also would like to make a fast and good sour beer. As you stated, I can produce the lactic acid fairly quickly, but I have still need to wait 2-4weeks for Brett to eat the residual sugar so that it tastes sour, and then 4-6 weeks for decent flavor, and 6-12 months to remove bottle bomb fear. The biggest fear I have is that in the presence of a low pH, Brett will super attenuate over a period of months, leading to bottle bombs. I think there are several solutions to this (1. wait 6-12 months to bottle, 2. Make a low gravity beer and wait for the gravity to drop to 1.008 before bottling, 3. Keg, 4. Beano).
I suppose you can accelerate the process with higher secondary temperatures.
I can't really taste the sour in a sour mash, until after the sugar has been eaten by fermentation.
 
The biggest fear I have is that in the presence of a low pH, Brett will super attenuate over a period of months, leading to bottle bombs. I think there are several solutions to this (1. wait 6-12 months to bottle, 2. Make a low gravity beer and wait for the gravity to drop to 1.008 before bottling, 3. Keg, 4. Beano).

Thanks for great comments.
I will likely keg this guy anyways.


I suppose you can accelerate the process with higher secondary temperatures.

Is anyone aware of the recommended temperature range for the brett strains, seems like the practice of brewing with them is still being developed. Should I think 80F is too high, or could I go even higher?


I can't really taste the sour in a sour mash, until after the sugar has been eaten by fermentation.

I definitely wondered about this. It would take a TON of acidity to overwhelm the sweetness of unfermented wort.
 
Is anyone aware of the recommended temperature range for the brett strains, seems like the practice of brewing with them is still being developed. Should I think 80F is too high, or could I go even higher?

You might check over at this blog:

http://brettanomyces.wordpress.com/

I have not read the entire blog just yet; so, if the answer isn't there... you might want to shoot him an email.
 
Where did you get the lacto you pitched? Did you sprinkle some grains in there or did you use a different technique?
 
Culture: WY5335 pitched at 120F, no starter.

On one hand, I know craft breweries are doing fast-lactic souring using the lactobacillus from grain.

On the other hand, some of the pictures I've seen of crazy bubbling nastiness from grain-inoculations scare me cuz they've got more than lactobacillus.

I went with the sure thing.
 
Any reason you chose to do a separate lacto fermentation as opposed to a sour mash?

Do you have to make any adjustments for boiling 1/3 of the volume with hops and the remaining volume without?
 
Any reason you chose to do a separate lacto fermentation as opposed to a sour mash?

I think I answered this just before. Went with pure culture instead of dealing with mixed bugs. I've done sour mashes before with success; just wanted to be sure on this one that I didn't get some other bug in there.


Do you have to make any adjustments for boiling 1/3 of the volume with hops and the remaining volume without?

I just over-hopped the small boil. I ran out of time to do the bitterness calculation, so I just doubled it.
 
On my all Brett L beer, The Muse, I got 88% attenuation. It took a few weeks at 75f to get there and it had some slowness and restarts.
Brett really seems to like warmer temps, I wonder if Brett can even produce fusel alcohols at all. I had one of my all brett beers at 85f and it tasted fantastic.
 
Great thread. I want to try exactly this method with half of a Flanders Red batch, culturing my own lacto from yogurt which should be a more pure culture than grain. The other half of the Red is going on a Roeselare cake. I expect it to be more like Jolly Pumpkin La Roja than a Flanders Red, but that's fine because the goal is something I can drink in 2-3 months rather than waiting 12-18 for the Flanders to be finished and ready for blending.

Subscribed. :mug:
 
This is so cool! I'm reading Wildbrews right now and I am fascinated with Belgian/wild fermentation. This is a very cool idea!

When you reheat the wort that has lacto in it, does it denature the alcohol as well or around what temp kills the lacto, but not the alcohol? I am thinking I want to do something similar soon.

Are you doing a full 5 gallons? Do you intend on aging any in oak?
 
When you reheat the wort that has lacto in it, does it denature the alcohol as well or around what temp kills the lacto, but not the alcohol?

There is no alcohol, only lactic acid.

I've seen confusion about this before (on one of the Berliner Weiss threads) where people think you can make alcohol using Lactobacillus. Remember, it's a bacteria, not a yeast.

Read the section of Wild Brews where he talks about Lactobacillus. That chapter was influential for me because I learned what each specific organism did. People lump together "bugs" and don't fully understand what each one does.
 
AH! That makes sense actually. One reason blending was popular I'd imagine. I've only gotten a few chapters in so it hasn't touched on what each component does and how it works. I can't wait to get through this book. I really want to try this out, too bad it takes like 3 years to get something decent. Although I think I'll brew one for SWMBO's 35th!!

How long did you sour with lacto?
 
As you peruse this thread, please note that I've made several updates to the OP. Some questions have been answered there instead of in the thread itself.
 
I recently did a small sour mash using two row. I checked the gravity after about 4 hours and it was 1.120. over the next 4 days I boiled some water and topped it off to keep the temps up a bit. I pulled about 1.5 gallons from the mash tun at 1.077 which I transferred to a primary bucket for 4 days. This morning I decided to bring this wort to a boil to kill off the lacto and other stuff in there as it was quite sour (smell/taste were decent and interesting). Checking the gravity after cooling it down I got 1.021. I couldn't taste any alcohol so I don't think it was wild yeast in there. I didn't think the bugs from a sour mash would take it down so quickly? can anyone tell me what might have happened and what I should do to fix this beer? sorry if I'm hijacking the thread but I think it's relevant.
 
There is no alcohol, only lactic acid.

I've seen confusion about this before (on one of the Berliner Weiss threads) where people think you can make alcohol using Lactobacillus. Remember, it's a bacteria, not a yeast.

Read the section of Wild Brews where he talks about Lactobacillus. That chapter was influential for me because I learned what each specific organism did. People lump together "bugs" and don't fully understand what each one does.

Many forms of Lactobacillus can produce alcohol. Bacteria/Fungus doesn't have much to do with it. The specific species of lacto that we use for beer is actually more of an exception to the rule in that it produces solely lactic acid and is incapable of producing alcohol.

Very good log, thanks for the well documented experience.
 
Many forms of Lactobacillus can produce alcohol. Bacteria/Fungus doesn't have much to do with it. The specific species of lacto that we use for beer is actually more of an exception to the rule in that it produces solely lactic acid and is incapable of producing alcohol.

Wow, thanks, I didn't know that part. Good correction.

So L. delbrueckii, the "pure" strain homebrewers can buy , is homofermentative (produces only lactic acid).

However, if someone did a sour mash, there could potentially be other strains of lactobacillus (i.e. L. brevis) present, which could produce alcohol?
 
Wow, thanks, I didn't know that part. Good correction.

So L. delbrueckii, the "pure" strain homebrewers can buy , is homofermentative (produces only lactic acid).

However, if someone did a sour mash, there could potentially be other strains of lactobacillus (i.e. L. brevis) present, which could produce alcohol?

yes, but the production of alcohol by lacto is pretty small, especially in comparison to sacch
 
The All-Brett L batch I did lacked the complexity I was expecting, so I added Brett B in the secondary. Brett L *does* seem to ferment very fast in general as a primary yeast. Brett C is definitely the slowest.

Did you notice any reduction in sourness as this batch has progressed? My all-Brett L pulled some transformation magic on the acid in mine and removed the tartness completely after a few weeks.
 
Reviving this thread. I have a local brew club competition in May and the category is Sours. Obviously my time is somewhat limited and, to top it off, I only make bottle conditioned beers (don't have the capability to keg yet). Thus, I'm trying to pull this off as fast as I can. Will proceed with souring 100% of the wort with a 100% Brett L fermentation.

My recipe below for a 5 gallon batch:
4.25 lbs Vienna
3.75 lbs Pilsner
2.5 lb Light Munich
.5 lbs Wheat
.5 lbs Special B
.5 lbs Caramunich
.5 lbs Aromatic

OG -->1.062

1 oz of East Kent Goldings for 60 minutes for about 15 Ibu's

Yesterday I did the mash and brought the wort to a boil. I cooled it down to about 90 degrees and pitched the Lactobacillus WLP677. I covered up the kettle nicely with the lid and sealed it with tin foil. Will let it sit for 5 -6 days to let it sour up. The ambient temp here in Long Beach right now is about 60-65 degrees so I figure it's going to proceed slowly. .

In the interim, I have been getting a starter going. 3L have been sitting on a stir plate for about two weeks now with some WLP653. The brett L seems to take forever. At this point I believe it's mostly attentuated, so I decanted the extra liquid and poured another 3 liters of starter fluid on it. I'll let it go as far as I can before I have to pitch, but I figured I'm gonna need a big starter.

This coming Saturday I'll do the boil with the sour wort to denature the bacteria and add the hops, then cool it down and pitch the brett.

This all seems straightforward enough, but I have a few questions:
1.Will the long time (5 days) or cooler temps that I allow the lactobacillus to interact with the wort produce any off flavors?
2. Will a 60 minute boil reduce any of the sourness?
3.What temp should I ferment the brett at during primary? 75? I'm figuring I'm gonna need a heating blanket or something. It's an odd experience because I'm normally always trying to keep the temps cool for my beers during fermentation.
4.Any ideas on what I could potentially add to the beer to give it some of the complexity lost by not aging with the bugs?
5.What final gravity should I aim for to avoid bottle bombs? 1.008? Whats the best way to achieve this in the shortest amount of time....just warmer temps? I mashed at 148 degrees in an effort to produce as a dry a beer as possible both to minimize the risk of bottle bombs and bring out the tartness. But, this is my first brett beer and I've read it can take quite a while to fully attenuate (as I have seen from the starter).

As always, any advice is much appreciated. I'll keep everyone posted as to how this goes. I'm excited :rockin:
 
After one week - I tried the wort and it doesn't really taste all that sour. Gonna let the wort go one more week. Ive it sealed up fairly well - should it have access to at least a little bit of oxygen?
 
jman300sd said:
After one week - I tried the wort and it doesn't really taste all that sour. Gonna let the wort go one more week. Ive it sealed up fairly well - should it have access to at least a little bit of oxygen?

I'm not sure what the stated cell counts are from White Labs for their bacteria, but *I think* one pack from Wyeast is ~100M, which would be ~1M per ML in 5gal. I've been researching the same method you're using now and the info I can find shows a pitch rate of closer to ~10M per ML for the lacto period of the fermentation is closer to optimal based on the tests that WY did (at least for their strain) That coupled with the fact that you're on the very low end of the temp range would tend to dictate that things will be really slow going. Lacto doesn't need O2 to reproduce, but a little bit won't hurt. However, too much might speed up the growth of other organisms you don't want to take hold. Can you warm things up and hold the temps?
 
You are making a Berliner Weisse.

I hope the hops are going in the boil after the souring. If they are already in there, they can stop the Lacto from working. Lacto doesn't like hops.

Lacto doesn't like O2, so keep it to a minimum.

Lacto likes to be warm. You could be too cool for it to work. Get a heating blanket on it. You want to be somewhere around 100 F (I do mine at 90 because that is what my heater can get to). Once the lacto gets going, it will only take about a day to completely sour in ideal conditions.

Once the PH goes down, that will protect the wort.

Since you are just using Brett as a primary yeast, it will be done in a few weeks. The Brett will work just like sacc (maybe a little slower, but generally a similar timeline).
 
So I did something similar to the OP this weekend and we will see how it all goes. For big brew day I brewed 10 gallons of Pointon's Proper (you can google the recipe). In 5 gallons I pitched a lacto starter that I had at ~110F for a few days (smelled nicely sour). This 5 gallons is in a heated chamber I made where its staying 109-113F. I plan on keeping it at this temp for a few days. I am not sure how long I will keep it in there as I did use hops in my boil ~20IBUs worth. Once I decide its done souring I will pasteurize it by bring it up to 140F for ~10 min. Once cooled I am going to pitch some Brett Trois and possibly what ever bugs I harvested out of a few bottles of Monks Cafe Flanders Red. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
 
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