When to hit the panic button...

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BrewLou

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Out of 11 all grain batches, I have never had this happen so hang with me as I explain.

Did a brew Monday. I started around noon that day. Finished up around 4:30pm and have everything sealed up with all my measurements in hand.

OG was 1.080. Ill typically do a double smack pack for anything over 1.075. Went with Wyeast California Ale for this. Popped both packs at mash in time. Neither expanded a bit.

I have had this happen in the past and was told not to worry. Every time before fermentation has kicked off w/in 24hrs.

Cooled wort after boil and pitched. Sealed everything up and as of this am there is not an ounce of activity I can measure/see. Gravity is still hovering at 1.079-1.080 and the air lock hasnt budged.

When should I worry about 2 packs of possibly crapped out yeast? Before I throw in the towel is it possible to get yet another smack pack and give it ago? It has been over 40hrs so I am getting a bit worried. This was a very complex brew (the most complex/expensive I have tried so far ($90 for the batch)) so I really dont want to give up on this unless I have too.

Thanks for any help in advance!
 
What was your pitch temp?
what is the temp in your fermentor now?
Was there any visible activation on the smack packs? (how puffed up where the packs before pitching)
Did you use any yeast nutrient?
 
Some more questions to ponder/learn from for next time:

What was the date on the yeast pack?
- Every month they sit, they loose viability.
- Even two old packs may not have given you the amount of yeast you needed.

How well did you aerate the wort before pitching the yeast?
- Again, IMO, higher gravity beers seem to need to more oxygen to aid in healthy fermentation.
 
Did you just purchase both smack packs? And if so, do you happen to know how old they were? I'm lucky in that enough people shop at my LHBS that the yeast is almost always super fresh, especially for common strains like the Cali ale.

Given the high gravity of the ale, I assume you aerated very well as it sounds like you've done HG beers before. Do you have an oxygen diffuser that you can use? And like Bean asked, was there any yeast nutrient added to the wort?

I would never walk away from a beer in the fermentor, especially when you've invested a lot and been careful up to here. I would purchase new yeast, checking for freshness. That being the case, you may want to get dry yeast just to be safe. Who knows what might have happened in he LHBS cooler? Pitch new yeast in and see what happens; could be that once it starts to ferment, the Wyeast will come out of dormancy and join in. Worst case, you pitched in some nutrient from the Wyeast packs for the new yeast to utilize. If you do this, though, I'd rack it to secondary just before fermentation completes, allowing healthy yeast to fall out and soak up any byproducts and getting it off the potentially dead yeast cake at the bottom.
 
If you still have no activity after a couple days i would suggest a yeast starter from a new smack pack and pitch that at high krausen, around 12-18hrs. Let us know how it turns out as far as getting fermentation going.
 
Ill answer what I can here...

Temp was a bit higher than what I typically pitch at (/shakes fist at the 4 triples I had during brewing) at 83-84F. Didnt notice this till after I had pitched the yeast. I generally pitch around 72-76F. Temp in fermentor now is ambient room temp. My house fluxuates around 68-72. Fermenter usually stays 70-72.

No nutrient/starter. I have made HG beers a lot stronger than this brew w/o either in the past that have turned out amazing. LHBS actually gave me the idea of using double packs as opposed to building a starter. More money for them I know, but the wife will kill me if I get any extra equipment to start growing up yeast lol.

No air stone or anything but I did oxygenate vigorously.

I purchased both smack packs on Sat and brewed this on Monday. Dates on the packs were fine, but neither pack showed any signs of activation after 3hrs. I have seen this before though and never had an issue.
 

+1
I am thinking you underpitched a bit. Even with the freshest date available, the Mr. Malty calc posted above says you'd want 3 smack packs for 5.25 gallons of 1.080 wort.

It's quite possible that a low yeast count is the culprit here. If you have the access to do so quickly, I would say it wouldn't hurt to grab and pitch an extra smack pack to bolster your yeast count. I've had packs not swell significantly when smacked on brew day and the beer has turned out just fine.

If your sanitation was solid, it won't hurt the beer to sit sealed up for a day or 2 without visible signs of fermentation.
 
Let it go a good 72 hours and see if it starts. If not just pitch a couple packs of Safale-05. It's the same exact strain and has the cell counts you need for a HG beer like that.
 
Ill answer what I can here...

Temp was a bit higher than what I typically pitch at (/shakes fist at the 4 triples I had during brewing) at 83-84F. Didnt notice this till after I had pitched the yeast. I generally pitch around 72-76F. Temp in fermentor now is ambient room temp. My house fluxuates around 68-72. Fermenter usually stays 70-72.

No nutrient/starter. I have made HG beers a lot stronger than this brew w/o either in the past that have turned out amazing. LHBS actually gave me the idea of using double packs as opposed to building a starter. More money for them I know, but the wife will kill me if I get any extra equipment to start growing up yeast lol.

No air stone or anything but I did oxygenate vigorously.

I purchased both smack packs on Sat and brewed this on Monday. Dates on the packs were fine, but neither pack showed any signs of activation after 3hrs. I have seen this before though and never had an issue.

So you got drunk, pitched 2 packages of un-activated yeast into an 84° 1.080 wort without any starter or nutrients and the shaking method wasn't ideal for a 1.080 wort either. And now it's not bubbling 40 hours later.

I think it's safe to say that it's not bubbling because your yeasts hate you.
 
So you got drunk, pitched 2 packages of un-activated yeast into an 84° 1.080 wort without any starter or nutrients and the shaking method wasn't ideal for a 1.080 wort either. And now it's not bubbling 40 hours later.

I think it's safe to say that it's not bubbling because your yeasts hate you.

Hey we want to make the yeast work to get that flavor right ;).

But seriously had the triples with a buddy of mine who brought his dog over for a playdate with mine while we smoked some bacon and chicken that afternoon. Just had a lot going on with everything else and mindlessly poured the packs in before checking the thermometer.

My last 4 batches have all been 9-11% abv and in all but 1 of them the packs have refused to swell in the least so I did not think much of this one.

Saison w/belgian strain (2 packs) 1.076 pitched gravity started in around 4 hours no expanded packs.
Triple w/trappist strain (2 packs) 1.087 pitched gravity started in around 8hrs no expanded packs.
Imperial Pils w/bohemian (2 packs) 1.086 pitched gravity. Started around 3hrs post placing in 46F environment both packs blew up.
and now this clone I a doing thats just got me a bit meh...
 
Do you chill with a wort chiller? I am in Virginia and have no trouble getting 11 gallons of wort down to 67F within 20 minutes using my 50' copper chiller. Not sure if you are on city water or well but either source should be nice and cool this time of year.

The yeast will be MUCH more happy if your wort is the same temp that you plan to ferment at.

If it were me I would just pitch in 2 packs of US-05 and call it a day if there was no activity after 48 hours.
 
I do use a wort chiller, but I do not have a thermometer built into my boil kettle just the fermenter. I have been looking to get one but with the baby on the way, I am having a hard time justifying buying new toys for my hobby. I just let the chiller go until I can move the coil in the wort and the water doesnt heat up on the exit tube then I transfer to fermenter to check temp.

Ill check it tonight and if there is nothing still I will get an order in for either US-05 or swing by to pick up another smack pack since the #'s are pointing in that direction.
 
I purchased both smack packs on Sat and brewed this on Monday. Dates on the packs were fine, but neither pack showed any signs of activation after 3hrs. I have seen this before though and never had an issue.


You might have some angry yeast there. Take a gravity reading and see if it has moved at all. You might need to get another smack pack and wait a good 8 hours for the pack to grow before you pitch it. I usually smack my packs the night before I brew if I don't have the time / lazy to make a starter.
 
I see your problem. You were smoking bacon on the day you brewed. That stuff really messes me up too. The biggest problem though is that when I light it the hot end flops down and burns my chin.
 
BrewLou, two things. One, Never shake your fist at the 4 trippels you had. That was awesome and I am currently insanely jealous. Two, RDWHAHB... and then pitch in a pack of dry yeast. But like they said, give it the ol' 72 hour wait before cracking it open just to be safe.

pitching at 84F isn't insane, but it may have shocked the yeast into dormancy. Once dormant, they have to be coaxed back to life. Far easier to pitch new yeast.
 
Better to let the wort cool overnight and pitch the next day.
Haha, now THAT's insane. Letting a giant tub of fermentable sugar water sit around an extra day is just inviting all sorts of issues. Get those yeast in there to take over as quick as possible!
Also, did you warm the smack packs at all BrewLou, or did you pitch the yeast on the cool side?
 
Well after I got home from work I checked it (gravity didnt move) and nothing. It may have been just a bit of slight frustration on my end, but I have the fermenter a rather violent shaking. There was some fizzing in the airlock from it being all shook up, but I figured nothing I could do until the am when I would head to the LBHS to pick up another smack pack just in case.

Walked by my brew room on the way to bed that night and heard a faint "blurp." My 1st thought was crap my imperial pils is now over flowing in my keezer lol. As I rushed to the keezer I heard it again at my feet.

Low and behold it is now bubbling slowly but surely. Got up this am and it is still doing the bubble beltch about every 12-15 seconds.

Whew :mug: By far the longest "dormant" phase I have seen or induced purposly or accidentally in my AG brewing lifetime. Almost 54hrs. Not my cup of tea, but at least it is off and moving now!

Thank you all for the quick advice/thoughts!

As for the Triple/Bacon comments... they were both amazing :). Triples are by far my favorite style currently. That taste along with the high abv you just cant beat it! Smoked bacon is just, well you know!
 
Haha, now THAT's insane. Letting a giant tub of fermentable sugar water sit around an extra day is just inviting all sorts of issues. Get those yeast in there to take over as quick as possible!
Also, did you warm the smack packs at all BrewLou, or did you pitch the yeast on the cool side?

I typically let them warm up for 20-30 mins at RT before I pop them. After that they sit at RT for the entire brewing process so usually anywhere from 3.5-5hrs depending on the batch.
 
It is rather hilarious...

She doesnt usually ask how much that grain costs. She just chaulks that up to a must have to brew. If she sees me pricing out a mini yeast lab or dairy fermenters, ect... its how much does that cost.

I dread the day she asks how much that batch of grain ran lol.
 
Make a starter in a growler, or a mason jar, or your carboy. It's no extra equipment unless you want it to be.
 
I keep a pretty steady pipeline going so empty fermenters, carboys, ect are tough to find (especially if the wife has a wine going.)

I can probably snag a couple growlers. Opportunity did present itself today! Neighbor has a old microfridge he wants to toss. If I can find an out of the way spot to stash it, BAM yeast fridge! Id love to get some of my own strains going.

Must find spot to hide minifridge!
 
As for the Triple/Bacon comments... they were both amazing :). Triples are by far my favorite style currently. That taste along with the high abv you just cant beat it! Smoked bacon is just, well you know![/QUOTE]

Bacon goes with everything, and EVERYTHING is better with bacon. Glad to hear your yeasties are alive!
 
Ill answer what I can here...

Temp was a bit higher than what I typically pitch at (/shakes fist at the 4 triples I had during brewing) at 83-84F. Didnt notice this till after I had pitched the yeast. I generally pitch around 72-76F. Temp in fermentor now is ambient room temp. My house fluxuates around 68-72. Fermenter usually stays 70-72.

No air stone or anything but I did oxygenate vigorously.

Glad to hear your yeast finally kicked in. I bet it was the 1.080 gravity that slowed them. As for the 84F temp, yeast actaully work quite well up to about 100F and infact work better at higher temps (I think 110F+ is fatal). HOWEVER at 84F they cast of flavors we tend to find less desirable, which is why we try to keep ferment temps down around 65F.

I think I read somewhere the suggestion for teh 1.080+ beers that you oxygenate at start, and then oxygenate again at the 12hour mark. And that is even using an O2 stone. But I can't remember where except possibly here in the forums.

I had a mead once take 4 days to start going, and it was typical mead gravity - 1.084
 
I definitely want to read up on the oxygenation process. I really prefer drinking and brewing the HG stuff. Most of my brewing friends are to afraid to step out of that 5-8% box and attempt the big beers. I dont mind being the guy since I really love the styles. Anything to make them better! Thats why we are all here right :mug:
 
DonLiguori said:
Haha, now THAT's insane. Letting a giant tub of fermentable sugar water sit around an extra day is just inviting all sorts of issues. Get those yeast in there to take over as quick as possible!
Also, did you warm the smack packs at all BrewLou, or did you pitch the yeast on the cool side?

You might want to check with the hundreds of no-chill brewers before jumping into ignorance with both feet.
 
ACbrewer said:
I think I read somewhere the suggestion for teh 1.080+ beers that you oxygenate at start, and then oxygenate again at the 12hour mark. And that is even using an O2 stone. But I can't remember where except possibly here in the forums.

you're correct. Interviews with pro- and very successful amateurs on the BN recommend this repeatedly. Once you get set up, oxygenate all your beers when your pitch your yeast, then like ACbrewer said hit the big ones again at 12-18 hours. Your yeast will love you!
 
I've read this too, and I aerate all my beers with O2 but I've never made anything bigger than 1.070. I am looking at making a couple of big beers this spring.

At pitching, all my beers get around 30 sec of steady O2 and anything in the 1.060+ range gets 45-60 sec.

When I do the second shot for a big beer at 12-18 hrs, how long should I give it?
 
I've read this too, and I aerate all my beers with O2 but I've never made anything bigger than 1.070. I am looking at making a couple of big beers this spring.

At pitching, all my beers get around 30 sec of steady O2 and anything in the 1.060+ range gets 45-60 sec.

When I do the second shot for a big beer at 12-18 hrs, how long should I give it?

if I recall correctly, you are looking for 'saturation' again. It might be instructive to take a gravity reading. If you have very little gravity movement - say less than 20% (16 points?) then you probably have a lot of sugar to take up and the yeast can use full saturation again.(8 to 12 ppm?) I'd say go with your 45 to 60 sec.

I think it was in YEAST where I read all that.
 
DonLiguori said:
Lol, sounds like someone needs a brew and a nap!

RDWHAHB, for real!

I have no problem with anyone brewing as they wish. If you wish to pretend that pitching yeast into 84F wort is the path to better beer, then have at it.

That being said, when someone comes here for advice and I see something that flies in the face of empirical evidence and current best practice, I will be clear on the side of better beer. Continue to peddle whatever nonsense you like, sir, but don't expect me to crumble at your bonhomie & nonsense. I want us all to make better beer, period.
 
... but don't expect me to crumble at your bonhomie & nonsense. I want us all to make better beer, period.
Not looking for a fight here, but a few things jump out at me.
I didn't say that pitching into 84 was the best way to go about it, I just said to not hit the panic button over that specific fact. 84F isn't enough to kill the yeast, not by a long shot. Additionally, if we're all here to make better beer, awesome. Making better beer and making perfect beer are two different things, and no-chill cooling isn't perfect. It's actually a bad idea, comparatively.
And lastly, crumble at my bonhomie? If you're going to try to outwit people with your cunning and expansive lexicon, than use it correctly. Crumble at my "good-naturedness" doesn't exactly work here. So, like I said, lets all just RDWHAHB.
 
DonLiguori said:
Not looking for a fight here, but a few things jump out at me.
I didn't say that pitching into 84 was the best way to go about it, I just said to not hit the panic button over that specific fact. 84F isn't enough to kill the yeast, not by a long shot. Additionally, if we're all here to make better beer, awesome. Making better beer and making perfect beer are two different things, and no-chill cooling isn't perfect. It's actually a bad idea, comparatively.
And lastly, crumble at my bonhomie? If you're going to try to outwit people with your cunning and expansive lexicon, than use it correctly. Crumble at my "good-naturedness" doesn't exactly work here. So, like I said, lets all just RDWHAHB.

Fair enough. And I may have been a little buzzed on those posts and more abrasive than necessary. But the post to which I responded was something like "pitching at 84 isn't crazy"--and in the interest of better beer, it IS crazy. As I think you pointed out (iPad is limited so I can't look back), that's gonna throw serious esters. And no-chill work for a huge number of people (and by work, I mean winning awards--plenty of threads here), there are so many easy cheap ways to chill wort that it baffles me why one would support pitching warm.

And "bonhomie" is by connotation glib & superficial good-naturedness--as in what I took to be you brushing aside an honest critique by saying "RDWHAHB, grumpy"--which wasn't an attempt to befuddle, I just talk/write that way when I'm drunk.

Anyway, the short version is I apologize for any personal attacks, but while the OP can't change the last batch we can help him improve the next. That is what HBT did for me.
 
I definitely want to read up on the oxygenation process. I really prefer drinking and brewing the HG stuff. Most of my brewing friends are to afraid to step out of that 5-8% box and attempt the big beers. I dont mind being the guy since I really love the styles. Anything to make them better! Thats why we are all here right :mug:

If you really like to stick to HG brews, then do yourself a favor and learn how to make a starter, understand proper pitch rates/temperatures, and proper O2 levels. It will improve your HG beers immensely.

For your 1.080+ beer: a woeful underpitch + 40 hour lag time + hot pitch temp + under-oxygenation = sharply increased off-flavors and fusel alcohols.

Yes, you're going to eventually have beer, but it will be an off-flavor mess and could be so much better. Why spend $90 and 5 hours brewing only to throw every good fermentation practice out the window at the end? Doesn't make sense.
 
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