GFI breaker pricing... this can't be right

Williams 728
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Breakers in my box are Siemens type QP, this one is QPF. I am assuming the "F" is for GFI and that this will fit. I can't find a type QP that is GFI.
 
You are correct the F designates that it is a GFI breaker. QP is the breaker design. That design was standardized and used by many different manufacturers since at least the early 70's. That breaker will fit Square D Homeline series, some Cutler Hammer, Siemens ITE, Challenger, GE, Sylvania, Westinghouse, and Bryant panels. There might be more that I can't remember.
 
I'm wondering if they have one for my panel. But I'll be damned if I can figure out what "type" of breaker I have. All I know is that it's made by square D.

*EDIT* Nevermind, I found it. It's type HOM.
 
So this breaker will fit... that's a huge relief! My other question would be about the use of a spa panel. I don't know how long I'll be in my current home and would like to have all of my equipment transferable to wherever I live. For a few dollars more ($50 spa panel and $10 non-gfi breaker) I can be ensured that this rig will only need a $10 breaker instead of $80 gfi in the future. Who uses what method and what are the pros and cons?
 
Spa panel is easier and more economical because if you move to a house with an older electrical panel you may not be able to find a reasonably priced GFI if you can find one at all. I would personally put a standard breaker in the main panel and the GFI on or near the sculpture that way when it trips it's easier to get to.
 
I looked in my breaker box and thought the breakers said "type: OP"
Could that be right - is there an OP and a QP? Are they the same thing/compatible?

Or are they different or maybe I need to take another look at them?

Thanks for any info - house was built in 1997 if that helps.
 
First post... I saw this thread and work at an electrical wholesale company. QP breakers are Siemens snap in breakers.
 
I tried to check this place out but the website is giving "403 Forbidden". Maybe the prices really were too good to be true?
 
yjfun said:
DustBow what is the manufacturer of your electrical panel?
Click to expand...

OK, 2 things:
First, panel appears to be a Siemens - Siemens sticker inside and all Siemens breakers

Second, I'm an idiot. They are Type "QP" breakers, it's just really hard to see the "tail" on the Q :)

I'm looking to go electric and was debating between two 120 circuits or one 240. Prices like this make the decision a little easier for 240v/30a
 
Flanneltrees804:

QPF is a GFCI version of a QP breaker they fit in the same panels and are the same size.

I wouldn't even consider 120 volt elements for anything but a rims tube if you have the ability to get 240volts to where your brew system is. Cost of material is the biggest reason we install 240 volt heaters in houses instead of 120 volt heaters.
 
Did anyone order one of these from this site yet?
It just seems too good to be true - ~$45 shipped for a 30a GFCI breaker.
Pretty much $100+ everywhere else.
 
There is a huge problem with counterfit breakers in this country right now. The off shore knock offs do not work correctly and along with most likely not offering any real gfi protection, they are a huge fire hazard. These companies go through a lot of trouble to make their junk breakers look identical to real product. You need to destroy the breaker to determine if it is real.

My dad always told me, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!
 
cjp4627 said:
There is a huge problem with counterfit breakers in this country right now. The off shore knock offs do not work correctly and along with most likely not offering any real gfi protection, they are a huge fire hazard. These companies go through a lot of trouble to make their junk breakers look identical to real product. You need to destroy the breaker to determine if it is real.

My dad always told me, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!
Click to expand...

That's part of why I'm choosing not to use the deliberate-ground-fault method of E-Stop that's common on PJ's schematics. Even good GFIs have a rated number of cycles. Contactors and industrial pushbuttons/selectors have many orders of magnitude more rated cycles.

E-Stops out in the real world aren't done like that, anyhow. Kal's safe-start design with the main power relay is the closest thing I've seen to how we do it at work. I'm doing something similar on mine. I'll draw it up once I've tested it.

Energy isolation is a whole different game. That's where you get into Lockout/Tagout of energy sources. Pretty much every pump in my plant has one of these guys nearby (or something similar):

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HUBBELL-WIRING-DEVICEKELLEMS-Disconnect-Switch-2EAV9?Pid=search
 
Thank you. I am glad that somebody else also realizes that GFCI's aren't designed to be used as an e-stop. I've tried to point this out before but it never seems to sink in.

I haven't seen Kal's safe-start design but every commercial or industrial installation that I've worked on uses a contactor to break the circuit when an E-stop is hit.
 
Here's my current draft - still building it. Hopefully will be ready for a water run over the weekend.



It's basically Kal's design with a couple of tweaks:

1) The E-stop switch itself. I'm basically using a stop like this. Only difference is mine's got a 110V LED illuminator.
2) Kal uses a NO key switch where I'm using a momentary NO pushbutton for my Power On.
3) I added the All Off button, which is a momentary NC. It's basically redundant to the E-stop button, but my excuse is that I got the button for free from some decommissioned equipment, and that at work, we tell people to only use E-stops for emergency stops. Use a regular cycle stop button for regular stoppages.

The reason I used the momentary NO instead of Kal's key switch is a little pedantic. In a well-designed e-stop, when the e-stop is reset, nothing should re-energize. The safe-start circuit with all of the NC blocks prevents any outputs for energizing, but if you use a key switch, resetting the e-stop button would immediately energize the main contactor. If you weren't switching your PID power, they'd automatically power up, for example. A momentary pushbutton to send the initial current through and close the relay (the branch between the off and on buttons maintains it once the relay is closed) prevents automatically closing the contactor.

The design doesn't show that the Off and On buttons are illuminated as well. The Off button lights off the run from the safe start relay to the main contactor coil, so it only lights once the main power to the breakers is on. The On light is fed from branching off immediately downstream of the NC on the E-stop, so it lights up as soon as the E-stop is pulled out.
 
Thanks for the simplification, yjfun. Kal's design is just based on those ice-cube relays that are cheap and readily available (I think I paid $12 for the relay and a DIN-rail mounted socket for it), so that's what I used as well.
 
Man, right when I thought I was ready to build a simple 1 pid/1 element/1 ssr/e-stop control panel based on a PJ diagram, I get thrown for a loop....now I have to figure out contactors, relays, coils, etc. :cross:

Time to search for more diagrams and try to learn how they work.
Are you simply bringing in the power through the e-stop and contactor first, then it goes out to the PID, SSR, etc. like in the more simplified designs?
 
I always believed in the KISS method of doing things. Less parts means less cost and less potential things to go wrong.
 
Dustbow

With the diagram that I gave you the only wiring shown is the control for the E-stop.

You can take the power for it from either leg of the 240 volt circuit that you are running to your controller just make sure you tap into the connections on the line side. (the side that's always hot on the relay). From the load side of the relay you can split the two main power legs anyway that you want to feed your elements, ssr's, pid's, or anything else that you want.

With this setup you'll never have to turn on or off your GFCI or trip it resulting in a longer lifespan of an expensive component.
 
Thanks, I will take a look at things and see if I can get my head wrapped around them...when it comes to this stuff I think the diagrams help me more because all the different terms and names of the parts screw me up more than the theory behind them
 
yjfun said:
Thank you. I am glad that somebody else also realizes that GFCI's aren't designed to be used as an e-stop. I've tried to point this out before but it never seems to sink in.

I haven't seen Kal's safe-start design but every commercial or industrial installation that I've worked on uses a contactor to break the circuit when an E-stop is hit.
Click to expand...

I am on the same side of the fence as you guys but I have brought it up with (I think it was) Kal and he had some valid points for doing it this way. The main one was by tripping the gfci you isolate power back at your breaker box, i.e. your power cord is "dead" as well as the rest of you rig. The thing I don’t like about this is you are relying on something that is always noted on the vendors datasheets that you “should not use the gfci trip as a point of isolation” – but for this situation where you won’t (shouldn’t) be using it to turn the control panel off to work on it it is kind of ok.
The biggest issue I have with the circuit layouts with the GFCI E-stop that are all over the place is what if someone is using it and doesn’t fully understand what they are doing and just blindly following a diagram – i.e. that someone actually might press the E-stop to trip the GFCI so they can rewire a part of their panel, they probably won’t be kill but there is still the slight risk with a huge consequence = high hazard.
I am getting off topic but will just finish off with the following scenarios between a GFCI and contactor E-stop
Contactor E-stop
You see a potential fault/issue on you rig that could cause electrocution, hit the e-stop, you brush against you rig while walking to unplug the power cord, the contactor failed to isolate power so the GFCI trips to save your life….
GFCI E-stop
You see a potential fault/issue on you rig that could cause electrocution, hit the e-stop, you brush against you rig while walking to unplug the power cord, the GFCI failed to isolate power, you get electrocuted….

I.e. by using the Contactor you still have one last line of defence, by using the GFCI you have used you last line of defence.

I’ll stop ranting now :D
 
bdjohns1 said:
That's part of why I'm choosing not to use the deliberate-ground-fault method of E-Stop that's common on PJ's schematics. Even good GFIs have a rated number of cycles. Contactors and industrial pushbuttons/selectors have many orders of magnitude more rated cycles.

E-Stops out in the real world aren't done like that, anyhow. Kal's safe-start design with the main power relay is the closest thing I've seen to how we do it at work. I'm doing something similar on mine. I'll draw it up once I've tested it.

Energy isolation is a whole different game. That's where you get into Lockout/Tagout of energy sources. Pretty much every pump in my plant has one of these guys nearby (or something similar):

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HUBBELL-WIRING-DEVICEKELLEMS-Disconnect-Switch-2EAV9?Pid=search
Click to expand...

Do you have any documentation on GFCI cycle rating? I am not saying you are wrong, I just looked a little on Eaton's site and cannot find any info.

I think the GFCI shunt e-stop is pretty slick but I went with a contactor on mine.

Shunt trip breakers are another option and designed exactly for e-stop situations but I am sure they are more expensive than what most are using.
 
Even if there was a cycle limitation, how often are you likely to hit the e-stop? I've used mine exactly once, and that was during testing.
 
I use something I call a Tetanus Watchdog Online Tester (or tetwatontest for short ). It's a switch that fits into my mouth, tied to a relaxation timer circuit. I need to bite and release once every few seconds. If I don't release, a latching relay is triggered and the whole system shuts down. So, in the event of a "can't let go" electrocution, involuntary jaw muscles clamp down and bingo I brew another day. Pat. Pending.

Or maybe I just have a big ole double pole switch on the wall that kills everything.
 
passedpawn said:
I use something I call a Tetanus Watchdog Online Tester (or tetwatontest for short ). It's a switch that fits into my mouth, tied to a relaxation timer circuit. I need to bite and release once every few seconds. If I don't release, a latching relay is triggered and the whole system shuts down. So, in the event of a "can't let go" electrocution, involuntary jaw muscles clamp down and bingo I brew another day. Pat. Pending.

Or maybe I just have a big ole double pole switch on the wall that kills everything.
Click to expand...

I don't expect any royalties or anything but how can you drink beer with a switch in your mouth? I suggest some sort of device that relies on butt clenching as an input and the frequency should be much higher. You don't want to be electrocuted for several seconds before this things reacts...or a switch on the wall would work.
 
How about a campfire and big crock pot. :D

All electrical and propane problems solved.:mug:
 
lschiavo said:
Do you have any documentation on GFCI cycle rating? I am not saying you are wrong, I just looked a little on Eaton's site and cannot find any info.

I think the GFCI shunt e-stop is pretty slick but I went with a contactor on mine.

Shunt trip breakers are another option and designed exactly for e-stop situations but I am sure they are more expensive than what most are using.
Click to expand...

Here's one study from mikeholt's site: http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/freestuff/NEMA-GFCI-Field-Test-Survey-Report-January-2001.pdf
 

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