Welding vs weldless

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
S

Skrimpy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
290
Reaction score
2
Location
smAlbany, NY
Ok, here's the deal. I scored some throw away sankeys from a distributor (yes I told them what I was going to do with them so the sale is legal, ie no reason for the discussion). So now I need to put some bulkheads in for a spiqot, sightglass, and thermometer. My question is, and yes I searched the forums and didn't find a good discussion comparing weldless vs welded bulkheads and thought maybe I should start one or ask if anyone has a link to one. My initial thought is that welded fittings would be better but then thought the weldless would be easier to clean because I could take them apart. Also, not being a welder or having any welding equipment to learn and diy it having someone do it might run me some pretty high scratch. Any thoughts?
 
Welded = no chance for leaks, very durable, nothing to replace/maintain, permanent, less parts to clean

Weldless = sometimes finicky when installing (can leak), o-rings to replace (very occasionally), not as durable, not permanent (you can change your mind), more parts to clean
 
Yuri_Rage said:
Welded = no chance for leaks, very durable, nothing to replace/maintain, permanent, less parts to clean

Weldless = sometimes finicky when installing (can leak), o-rings to replace (very occasionally), not as durable, not permanent (you can change your mind), more parts to clean
Click to expand...

So when are you going to be in NY to weld this for me? :)

Is welding the thin SS difficult? I've heard it's not something you want to tackle as a novice. I have access to a MIG welder and from what I understand what I really need is a TIG welder. If you think the MIG will do I will try my hand at it. If not, I guess I'm going to have to cough up the scratch to have someone do it.
 
mig will do it. Practice on scrap of similar thickness. You may find it hard not to blow through the metal. You need a special filler wire for stainless.
 
Ok. Being the non welder, I have to ask...that means filling the keg with argon before welding? That's a tough one with a big hole cut in the top so I would guess that's not what you are talking about.
 
Skrimpy said:
Ok. Being the non welder, I have to ask...that means filling the keg with argon before welding? That's a tough one with a big hole cut in the top so I would guess that's not what you are talking about.
Click to expand...

This statement makes me think you need to find a pro (or an accomplished hobby welder) to weld your fittings, if you go that route. Personally, I've been using weldless fittings on my kegs, with no problems.

Here's a link to a similar discussion, including McMaster-Carr part numbers for the stuff you need to make a weldless bulkhead, if you decide to go that route.
 
Hello, thought I would throw in my 2 cents in - hope you don't mind, but it might save you some pain.

I had a lightweight 25 gal thin-walled pot welded for electric by a professional welder using tig, but due to the diff in thickness, grade of ss - the pot is now unusable.

Wished I had went weldless for the thin wall. My 55 gal ss drum welded at the same time worked alright, but even that was difficult for the welder - the 1 inch fittings were so much more dense that blow thru was common -the welder was used to mostly heavy duty stuff.

Also, the 316 is extremely difficult to weld.

A second welder used to thin walls welded 2 fittings in the tri-clad bottom pots and worked pretty well, but even he had problems.

Good Luck,

Dan F.
 
If you can get a welder on the cheap or free (offer them homebrew, worked for me) then go for it. Else rather than waste time and money trying to weld yourself, go for weldless...

But optimally welding is the way to go... cleaner cuts and like yuri said, no leaks
 
Use silver solder for both sanke and thin pots, if you can solder with 95/5 you can do the 1000 degree silver solder. You will need the staysilv white paste flux and safety silv 56 silver solder, clean the parts, apply liberal coating of flux both sides of soldering area, heat metal to dull red and apply silver solder. If you overheat the stainless and turn it black, let it cool and sandpaper the metal clean and start over. When you are finished let the work cool and remove flux with hot water and SS wire brush or scotch brite. If you want to practice, buy a couple 3/8" SS fender washers and 1/2" SS nuts, this will let you get familiar with how much heat to use with the silver solder. The main warning with silver brazing alloys is some of the solders are alloyed with cadmium which is a bad thing when in contact with food or beverage products, the Safety Silv 56 is cadmium free. The solder is not cheap ~$30 for a 1 OZ coil, but that should do about 6 - 10 joints or more if you are careful with fit up as this material will flow into void between fitting and pot. This material is almost as strong as welding and will not soften at temperatures below melt point (1,000 degrees +), direct flame from burner is okay as long as there is liquid in connection to carry away the heat.
 
kladue said:
Use silver solder for both sanke and thin pots, if you can solder with 95/5 you can do the 1000 degree silver solder. You will need the staysilv white paste flux and safety silv 56 silver solder, clean the parts, apply liberal coating of flux both sides of soldering area, heat metal to dull red and apply silver solder. If you overheat the stainless and turn it black, let it cool and sandpaper the metal clean and start over. When you are finished let the work cool and remove flux with hot water and SS wire brush or scotch brite. If you want to practice, buy a couple 3/8" SS fender washers and 1/2" SS nuts, this will let you get familiar with how much heat to use with the silver solder. The main warning with silver brazing alloys is some of the solders are alloyed with cadmium which is a bad thing when in contact with food or beverage products, the Safety Silv 56 is cadmium free. The solder is not cheap ~$30 for a 1 OZ coil, but that should do about 6 - 10 joints or more if you are careful with fit up as this material will flow into void between fitting and pot. This material is almost as strong as welding and will not soften at temperatures below melt point (1,000 degrees +), direct flame from burner is okay as long as there is liquid in connection to carry away the heat.
Click to expand...

Here a stupid question

Is it possible to silver solder with mapp gas?
 
Have done it with both propane and mapp gas, weapon of choice is a goss 600 trigger light turbo torch on mapp gas. Have an older propane turbo torch that works well also but lacks the igniter. Main trick with silver solder is to not heat the work too fast and blacken the stainless, as the work heats through dark red color test the joint with solder to see if it will melt and flow, you will definately know when it is hot enough as the solder will flow towards the hottest spot. It is advisable to apply flux at least 3/4" wider than joint area to prevent discoloration of surrounding stainless during heating. Sometimes you might get a greenish flux residue around the joint which is not a problem just a reaction that happens with the flux and stainless, it washes off and does not discolor the stainless. When you get the hang of silver soldering and want to try something challenging, try soldering stainless screen wire for pickup tube screens, (a micro torch is just the right size for that job).
 
I have a mig and have used it for years on regular steele. I didn't have the guts to try to weld my stainless keg. I figured kegs were to hard to come by for me to chance blowing holes thru it. I asked around at local fabrication shops and I didn't find anyone who seemed thrilled with doing a small job. So, I bought the weldless, drilled a hole and filed it until the nipple was tight. I used it the first time Sunday and no leaks whatsoever. It was under $30 delivered and I spent maybe a half hour putting it on.
 
Ok. Sounds like I either got to cough up the scratch or go with weldless until I can find someone to do it for me...for a homebrew or two...maybe a homebrew per fitting...er I've got 4 coming so 3 fittings/keggle. It's a twelve pack for 4. Right now my beer isn't that good. The last two batches I did had stuff floating in them. I think I have to ditch my plastic for new. The keggles with gravity feed through new tubes to the fermenter ought to do it. Maybe I don't need any new plastic.
 
Are you a member of a local hombrew club?
I've got a tig welder and I'm planning on practicing on some SS scrap and the shreaded keg (looks like it got backed over by the delivery truck and they tried to weld it back together) but my homebrew club has a guy who welds stainless for club members.
 
I have weldless on my keggles and really like them. The only thing I would say is make sure you go with a compression fitting on the inside as it is hard on my one keggle to get everything to line up and be tight (all threaded fittings) No leaks when tightened the right amount.
 
With the proper torch that runs off natural gas and compressed air you can silver solder. I have done this on different items. One a 3/16" thick by 8" diameter antique 150+ year old clock strike bell that was cracked to the center mounting hole. After dressing the weld it had its ring back vs a thud.
 
conpewter said:
I have weldless on my keggles and really like them. The only thing I would say is make sure you go with a compression fitting on the inside as it is hard on my one keggle to get everything to line up and be tight (all threaded fittings) No leaks when tightened the right amount.
Click to expand...

+1234. Either a compression or flare fitting lets you rotate the dip tube to get everything aligned, without leaving a loose place to break suction when you're trying to drain.
 
GearBeer said:
Are you a member of a local hombrew club?
I've got a tig welder and I'm planning on practicing on some SS scrap and the shreaded keg (looks like it got backed over by the delivery truck and they tried to weld it back together) but my homebrew club has a guy who welds stainless for club members.
Click to expand...


I think I'll try this first. We have two local HB clubs, neither of which I have contacted yet. Unless there is a kind soul near smAlbany that would be willing to do some welding for me. I would be willing to do it in exchange for the first batch of ale that comes out of the system.
 
I thought that I would give my $0.02 on this subject. I found that you can braze stainless steel pretty easy. There are brazing rods with a blue flux on them that are made for stainless. I think the brazing temp is around 1,600 F. So any one that has some minimal brazing experience this is also an option. The finished product looks more like a weld that a thin coating of brazing rod or solder. On a side note this blue rod will also join brass to stainless steel if this is something someone wanted to do.
 
Here is throwing in my .02...
I did some asking in here about people on my area who had experience with this kind of welding work, and found out that the guy who owns my LHBS does fantastic work. I went down and talked to his wife, and she showed me some kegs he had just done a few days before that were being picked up that day. His work is awesome, and the basic job, cut out the top, bend and weld a stainless tube onto the top, along with some stainless washers, to turn it into a lid WITH a handle, and install one bulk head for the valve, is $65. WELL worth the money in my mind. I am going to have him put in a few extra bulkheads, for a thermometer and a sight glass, but I don't expect that will push the cost up too much more, but I have not asked yet.

Anyway, my point is, ask around, you might be able to get the work done cheap.
 
I paid $130 to have 9 couplings welded in and 9 washers welded to the cutout tops. That covered 3 kegs. It was money well spent in my mind because they will never leak ever and I feel like the resale on the kegs are ultimately higher if I ever chose to get out of the hobby.
 
T-Hops said:
I thought that I would give my $0.02 on this subject. I found that you can braze stainless steel pretty easy. There are brazing rods with a blue flux on them that are made for stainless. I think the brazing temp is around 1,600 F. So any one that has some minimal brazing experience this is also an option. The finished product looks more like a weld that a thin coating of brazing rod or solder. On a side note this blue rod will also join brass to stainless steel if this is something someone wanted to do.
Click to expand...

What brazing rods are you using? As kladue pointed out earlier when he was talking about using 1000 degree silver solder, there are some solders that contain cadmium, which is not food safe. Some brazing rods might not be food safe either.
 
My LHBS uses a hobby welder to do keg welding. For three kegs, I had this work done for $175.

Reweld four poorly welded fittings that were leaking (I bought the kegs with these bad fittings in them) - $60, drill holes and weld four new fittings - $60, cut one top and grind/polish smooth - $35, clean up the sharp edges on the cut tops of two other kegs and grind/polish smooth plus miscellaneous cleanup (removing weld spatter left by previous welder), $20.

It was definitely worth it.
 
I called Bernzomatic 1-800-654-9011 about their NS-3 brazing rods (blue stainless steel) and asked if these rods are food safe. I was told prior to use they are poisonous, but once used and the surface cleaned that they are not poisonous.
 
Bobby_M said:
I paid $130 to have 9 couplings welded in and 9 washers welded to the cutout tops. That covered 3 kegs. It was money well spent in my mind because they will never leak ever and I feel like the resale on the kegs are ultimately higher if I ever chose to get out of the hobby.
Click to expand...

Forgive me, but what are the 9 washers for?
 
The washers are welded to the outside edge of the tops that were cut out, 3 per top. Thus making them bigger than the hole they were cut from so they can be used as lids and not fall in the keggle. Kind of like this only this one uses metal strips instead of washers welded on to the lid.
16b3_1.JPG
 
Makes perfect sense. In my head I was picturing SS stock pot lids which is probably why I didn't "get it". Thanks.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
Welded = no chance for leaks, very durable, nothing to replace/maintain, permanent, less parts to clean...
Click to expand...

I have to call BS here. Weld porosity can and does happen and is exceptionally difficult to address when it does rear its ugly head.
 
Your BS flag is hereby revoked. What Yuri meant to say was..

Welded = noVERY LITTLE chance for leaks, very durable, nothing to replace/maintain, permanent, less parts to clean... compared to weldless.
 
That I can buy. Unlikely if the welder knows what he/she is doing but an amateur can easily produce a weld which leaks like a sieve.
 
All of this is exactly the type of discussion I was looking for. Thanks for all the help guys! The kegs are in the garage and three of them are in fantastic shape. Almost brand new. One is a little dinged up and doesn't really match the other three so that is the extra. When they are done I will take pictures and post a link. Now just to find some of that used bed framing for a free stand...those of you that fabricated tippy dumps, what did you use for hinges?
 
You have given an useful and interesting information ......
Its very interesting to learn....
Thanks..........
...............


kladue said:
Use silver solder for both sanke and thin pots, if you can solder with 95/5 you can do the 1000 degree silver solder. You will need the staysilv white paste flux and safety silv 56 silver solder, clean the parts, apply liberal coating of flux both sides of soldering area, heat metal to dull red and apply silver solder. If you overheat the stainless and turn it black, let it cool and sandpaper the metal clean and start over. When you are finished let the work cool and remove flux with hot water and SS wire brush or scotch brite. If you want to practice, buy a couple 3/8" SS fender washers and 1/2" SS nuts, this will let you get familiar with how much heat to use with the silver solder. The main warning with silver brazing alloys is some of the solders are alloyed with cadmium which is a bad thing when in contact with food or beverage products, the Safety Silv 56 is cadmium free. The solder is not cheap ~$30 for a 1 OZ coil, but that should do about 6 - 10 joints or more if you are careful with fit up as this material will flow into void between fitting and pot. This material is almost as strong as welding and will not soften at temperatures below melt point (1,000 degrees +), direct flame from burner is okay as long as there is liquid in connection to carry away the heat.
Click to expand...
 

Similar threads

theromantrs
House vs apartment
2
Replies
50
Views
3K
alexiv
alexiv
agentbud
CO2 Tank on the Cheap
2
Replies
50
Views
4K
agentbud
agentbud
yard_bird
Balancing Sweetness: Cara Malts vs. Higher Mash Temp
Replies
13
Views
990
4Mesh
4
Hop
Ongoing Review: BrewHardware Premium Recirculating BIAB Package
Replies
4
Views
658
Bobby_M
Bobby_M
lonestar1
Mega Pot 15 Gal Kettle Pin Hole - How to Repair It Suggestions
Replies
29
Views
2K
Bobby_M
Bobby_M

Latest posts

Back
Top