well my hard cider is ready to come out of the carboy and goin into my 5 gallon keg... my question is i like my hard cider sweet like wood chuck style.. what would be the best way to sweeten it up , this is my frist time doing a hard cider so i just figured it would be best to ask before i do to make sure i dont screw anything up
best way to back sweeten hard cider
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lutherslagers
Well-Known Member
thaw a can of frozen apple juice concentrate and add it to your keg. Not sweet enough add a second.
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
Cold crashing will *not* reliably drop all the yeast from suspension. If you add any further sugars, once the temp warms back up to where the yeast like it, they'll start fermenting again ... first, just the few survivors, but then their little yeasties, and their little yeasties and so on.
What david_42 said ...
If you just keep the keg cold, then the fermentation won't start. And if you are expecting it to be drank pretty soon, that would be the easiest way to go. Then you don't have to be concerned about artificial sweetners, killing the yeast, etc and can just sweeten with FCAJ (frozen concentrated apple juice).
What david_42 said ...
If you just keep the keg cold, then the fermentation won't start. And if you are expecting it to be drank pretty soon, that would be the easiest way to go. Then you don't have to be concerned about artificial sweetners, killing the yeast, etc and can just sweeten with FCAJ (frozen concentrated apple juice).
what do u consider being drank prity soon like over a month or so? longer shorter?
well how can i get all the yeast out if i think i wont be drinking it very fast cause i want to enjoy it over time...
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
As far as "drinking pretty soon" and fermentation ... let me clarify that ... actually, as long as it's in the icebox ... no worries. The yeast will not start fermenting again.
"Enjoying it over time" ...
as with any "kegged"cider that does not have sulfites in it, keeping it in the cold will help keep it from going stale/bad as quick, but because (I assume) you are not flushing and pressurizing your keg with CO2, not pasteurizing it, and the cider is not high gravity (high alcohol) the oxygen contact will eventually catch up with it. Depends on prior sanitation too. I'd guess 3 or 4 weeks is safe. But I'd keep testing it for changes. Bottling holds it for longer.
If it's not carbonated those boxes called "cask wine" <Uh huh>, or "goon casks" or bag-in-a-box or wineboxes or whatever they call em would limit oxygen exposure too.
If you are looking to just clear the cider, then yes ... cold crash and rack off the lees into the keg ... this does not sufficiently remove the yeast though to avoid fermentation if it is warm and sugar is added. I suppose another alternative ... most kegs draft from a point above the bottom and so if you are not sloshing it around, it will probably fall clear and draft from above the lees anyway. But just for simplicity's sake, crash and allow to fall clear, rack/sweeten/put into the keg and keep under refrigeration.
"Enjoying it over time" ...
as with any "kegged"cider that does not have sulfites in it, keeping it in the cold will help keep it from going stale/bad as quick, but because (I assume) you are not flushing and pressurizing your keg with CO2, not pasteurizing it, and the cider is not high gravity (high alcohol) the oxygen contact will eventually catch up with it. Depends on prior sanitation too. I'd guess 3 or 4 weeks is safe. But I'd keep testing it for changes. Bottling holds it for longer.
If it's not carbonated those boxes called "cask wine" <Uh huh>, or "goon casks" or bag-in-a-box or wineboxes or whatever they call em would limit oxygen exposure too.
If you are looking to just clear the cider, then yes ... cold crash and rack off the lees into the keg ... this does not sufficiently remove the yeast though to avoid fermentation if it is warm and sugar is added. I suppose another alternative ... most kegs draft from a point above the bottom and so if you are not sloshing it around, it will probably fall clear and draft from above the lees anyway. But just for simplicity's sake, crash and allow to fall clear, rack/sweeten/put into the keg and keep under refrigeration.
i defently will be flushing the air out with co2.. and the alcohol% should be atleast a min of 8% have to take a final gravity readying but the og was 1.070-1.075 range....
i do plan on making a few more batches if this frist batch is good.. to let it sit in a keg and age over the winter but i will have to add sugar to sweeten it up.. so is there anything i can use to kill off the yeast.. i thought i rember reading about something that kills it off.
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
CO2 is good. 8% helps (10% to 12% is better ... pretty uncommon with cider tho). Very good sanitation helps a lot too.
Potassium sorbate kills the yeast. If you use it, you would add it along with Potassium metabisulfite. Follow the directions for both and don't over-add.
Potassium sorbate kills the yeast. If you use it, you would add it along with Potassium metabisulfite. Follow the directions for both and don't over-add.
Mermaid
Well-Known Member
Anyone ever bottle with lactose? I'm thinking this would be better than the laxative risk involved with Xylitol, and I tend to avoid sucralose as it gives me headaches. I'm sitting on about 5 gallons of cider/cyser now in varying stages of fermentation/aging so while I don't want all of it to be "sweet", bottling some to be sweet might be a nice treat for some of my friends who like their cider on the sweet vs. dry side as well.
ok so i need two things to kill off the yeast? what do they both do? and just wondering also i rember reading something that adds a bit of tartness to the cider what woudl that be?
DMartin
Well-Known Member
Mermaid, I bottle all my cider with about 1lb of lactose per 5 gal. It gives it just enough sweetness to overcome that clingy dry taste. Lactose also adds a thicker, creamy feel when you drink it so I would add a max of 4 to 4.5 oz per gal. or you'll overcome it.
Brewkowski
Well-Known Member
So what would happen if you were to naturally carbonate and keg a cider, then after it's got a good carbonation level to it, you release the pressure and pour in some apple juice concentrate that has been treated with sorbate then add gas to repressurize?
rycov
Well-Known Member
you can age the keg over winter before you add the sweetener, then add the sweetener (more juice sugar w/e). i backsweetended my graff with apple juice. it was in the keg for close to a month with no additional fermentation.
DMartin
Well-Known Member
If you're gonna keg, why not kill the yeast and force carb it? Then you can sweeten all you want.
Honestly, most of the people with back sweetening issues are those of us who haven't upgraded to kegs yet
Honestly, most of the people with back sweetening issues are those of us who haven't upgraded to kegs yet
Mermaid
Well-Known Member
Something else to consider about killing the yeast with sulfites is, some folks have allergies to them, so if you go that route and tap your keg for friends, etc. you might want to let folks know that the cider contains sulfites.
(most commercial wine these days use sulfites so it's not a big deal for most folks)
(most commercial wine these days use sulfites so it's not a big deal for most folks)
Lactose is milk sugar and does work well. But some of your friends may have allergies to it.I have added a splash of Sprite or 7-up to sweeten and it gives a slight carbing to it when served; this works well as I can serve both sparking and dry from the same bottle. Cheers
BOBrob said:
Just one problem...
Lactose may be a sugar, but it's not very sweet at all. Brewers who know what they're doing use it more for body and mouthfeel rather than sweetness.
Yes, it's slightly sweet. But to achieve any significant amount of sweetness, you're going to end up with a pretty chewy cider, which just isn't right.
You can pasteurize. Or if you have a kegging system, stabilize or filter. I just prefer to use a sweetener (though I prefer my cinders dry, so I typically don't do anything). I use Splenda, but xylitol, Ace-K, and even aspartame are viable choices.
However, I'll be getting a keg system soon, and IMO, the best method with kegs is just to filter the yeast out, and use real sugar.
KWKSLVR
Well-Known Member
As mentioned, Lactose isn't a really a sweetener. Also, a "dry" cider doesn't automatically mean "non-sweet" cider. All a dry cider is, is a cider that has had ALL of the natural sugar fermented out. Dry is in the finish, not the flavor profile. I've had many sweet ciders that have a dry finish.
Anyway, that said, I think it depends on how sweet you want it. If something is full of apple flavor, I personally don't think it needs THAT much sweet to it. I don't find Woodchuck to be all that sweet (or dry in the finish for that matter). I find something like this to be MUCH drier have a LOT more complex apple flavor and as sweet as Woodchuck. Woodchuck tastes like lightly carbonated apple flavored beer to me more than "hard cider". I really think that I could take Miller Light, let it go a little flat, add apple juice and get Woodchuck.
NOT that there's ANYTHING wrong with that, people should drink what they like, but my palliate finds Hard Cider and Woodchuck to be mutually exclusive.
Anyway, that said, I think it depends on how sweet you want it. If something is full of apple flavor, I personally don't think it needs THAT much sweet to it. I don't find Woodchuck to be all that sweet (or dry in the finish for that matter). I find something like this to be MUCH drier have a LOT more complex apple flavor and as sweet as Woodchuck. Woodchuck tastes like lightly carbonated apple flavored beer to me more than "hard cider". I really think that I could take Miller Light, let it go a little flat, add apple juice and get Woodchuck.
NOT that there's ANYTHING wrong with that, people should drink what they like, but my palliate finds Hard Cider and Woodchuck to be mutually exclusive.
KWKSLVR
Well-Known Member
Double Post! 
Sure it does. That's what "dry" means. It's the opposite of sweet. That's the definition of "dry" in the winemaking world- without sweetness.
KWKSLVR
Well-Known Member
Dry means that all of the fermentable sugar has been consumed by the yeast. That's all.
Now, a byproduct of all of the fermentable sugar being consumed happens to be a lack of sweetness. Here's another way to look at it. I make two ciders, they both have the same level of sweetness. One had the fermentation processes halted leaving remaining fermentable sugars behind, thus "naturally" sweetening the cider. The second had all fermentable sugars fermented by the yeast and was then back sweetened. Despite having the same amount of sweet, the second is dry, the first is not. You could back sweeten a dry cider so sweet that it's undrinkable, but it's STILL a dry cider because all of the fermentable sugar was fermented. The opposite of "Sweet" is "Bitter", not "Dry".
At least that's how a few cider makers in Normandy explained it to me.
<ducks>
Now, a byproduct of all of the fermentable sugar being consumed happens to be a lack of sweetness. Here's another way to look at it. I make two ciders, they both have the same level of sweetness. One had the fermentation processes halted leaving remaining fermentable sugars behind, thus "naturally" sweetening the cider. The second had all fermentable sugars fermented by the yeast and was then back sweetened. Despite having the same amount of sweet, the second is dry, the first is not. You could back sweeten a dry cider so sweet that it's undrinkable, but it's STILL a dry cider because all of the fermentable sugar was fermented. The opposite of "Sweet" is "Bitter", not "Dry".
At least that's how a few cider makers in Normandy explained it to me.
<ducks>
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
<ducks> ?
Frogs.
Frogs.
Sulfite intolerance is kind of rare and the symptoms are far from the headache people attribute to sulfites. We are talking skin rash kind of reactions. AFAIK, sulfite headaches were disproved.
On the other hand, lactose intolerance is quite common.
On the other hand, lactose intolerance is quite common.
All good points. As long as you are kegging the cider, the use of sulfite to stop & kill the yeast is fine. For a sweetener use whatever sugar you choose as it won`t ferment anyway.Cheers
Except sulfites don't kill yeast! Lots of people say it, but it's not true. Wine yeast are especially tolerant of added sulfites- that's why winemakers use them!
Dry means that all of the fermentable sugar has been consumed by the yeast. That's all.
Now, a byproduct of all of the fermentable sugar being consumed happens to be a lack of sweetness. Here's another way to look at it. I make two ciders, they both have the same level of sweetness. One had the fermentation processes halted leaving remaining fermentable sugars behind, thus "naturally" sweetening the cider. The second had all fermentable sugars fermented by the yeast and was then back sweetened. Despite having the same amount of sweet, the second is dry, the first is not. You could back sweeten a dry cider so sweet that it's undrinkable, but it's STILL a dry cider because all of the fermentable sugar was fermented. The opposite of "Sweet" is "Bitter", not "Dry".
At least that's how a few cider makers in Normandy explained it to me.
<ducks>
Well, that's completely incorrect. BUT I'm not here to argue! If that's your experience and your belief, that's cool.
I'm just trying to get it clear for people who may be new cider or winemakers. Dry= opposite of sweet in ALL wine/cider/meadmaking terms. Maybe in Normandy they're speaking a different language? Dry, as in not sweet, is a well recognized term in winemaking. A dry cider is NOT sweet. Dry is most often defined as .990-1.000.
NooBrew34
New Member
Woah there, laxative risks with xylitol? That is what I had planned on using, and never really knew any affects of a non sugar sweetener.
I am respectfully corrected. The use of potassium sorbate & potassium metabisufite (campden tabs) will "stabilize" the yeast so you can back sweeten . Cheers
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
Bhunter87
Well-Known Member
Yooper said:
Yeah, you're wrong. I don't want to argue either, but 'dry' is a mouth feel, 'sweet' is a taste. I've done 3rd wave coffee for years and I can tell you, dry and sweet are not antonyms.
Yes, a lack of sweet makes your bev dry, but its the lack of natural sugars that create the dryness. you can back sweeten all you want and it will still have the sharp dry mouth feel...
I don't know wtf "third wave coffee" is and what it has to do with wine/mead/cider, but it terms of making fermented beverage, Sweet and DRY are antonyms.
Here's the definition from 3 randomly selected online wine dictonaries, if you're not satisfied I can fill this post with 50 or more quotes substantiating this as well.
hmmm...sounds like the opposite to me.
More.
I'm just sayin.......
In common usage, for beer, wine and cider, dry is the opposite of sweet.
Bhunter87 said:
Nope. There's very little, if any, difference between sugars left over after fermentation, and sugars that have been added - depending on the sugar(s) added, of course.
That "dry" mouthfeel you're talking about is likely what's referred to as astringency, not dryness.
You validated your stance by saying that bitter, instead of dry, is the opposite of sweet. Absolutely untrue. Sweetness and bitterness are sensed by entirely different receptors. Sweetness and bitterness can both exist side-by-side, although we perceive this as balanced. For example, just because water is not sweet, does not make it bitter.
So when referring to beer/wine/cider/etc, dry (rather than bitter) refers to a lack of sugars, since an absence of sugar doesn't make something bitter - the presence of compounds that activate the bitterness receptors on the tongue is what makes something bitter.
DMartin
Well-Known Member
Bhunter87 said:
HBT Rule of Thumb: Yooper knows what she's talking about until conclusively and exhaustively proven otherwise.
Bhunter87
Well-Known Member
Revvy said:
"Cider almost always comes from apples. As with wine, the modifier "dry" means that the natural sugar has been fermented out. And, of course, the use of that word "fermented" means that it is alcoholic. Dry cider, then, is hard cider that contains between 5% and 7% alcohol. It is often clear. It is particularly popular in Britain and Ireland.
Dry cider is more popular as a beverage than as an ingredient for recipes. It is drunk on its own or used in mixed drinks. Because not everyone likes a sugarless cider, some distillers add sugar when they bottle it, but they still call it dry cider. Go figure."
Thhheeeyyyy aaaaddddddd ssssuuuggaaarrr and it's still drryyyyyy
If you have a really dry wine, you can put so much sugar in it that it turns to syrup and it will STILL have the dry mouthfeel.
Third-wave coffee is specialty coffee. Find a really nice shop around you that has direct trade coffee and go talk to them. If you're into wine, coffee would blow you away
Bhunter87
Well-Known Member
emjay said:
I never said the word "bitter"...
Bhunter87 said:
Assuming that quote's correct, it never said that it's still dry. It says they still call it "dry cider", which is a big difference. I'm willing to buy that they refer to it as "dry cider", but that's still not what dry actually means.
And again, that "dry" mouthfeel is referred to as astringency, not dryness. And in fact, having sugar added back in after the fact will not magically give it a different mouthfeel than the same amount of sugar being left over from fermentation...
Jacob_Marley
Well-Known Member
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