Keg Force Carbing Methods Illustrated

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Right on, thank you very much for this info, I'll try 10 ft of hose that way I don't have to play with the regulator much.
 
also after two weeks at 12 psi for 2 volumes do I just keep it at 12 psi? Or will it begin to start over carbing at that point?
 
Right on! thanks for the quick helpful replies. I found a 5' piece of hose laying around and I hooked it up, so far it seems o dispense fine at 12 PSI, it's quick but not over foamed. Thanks again!

:mug:
 
I am sure this has been asked somewhere before but I didnt know exactly what to search for. I just got my kegging setup today. I plan on doing the set it and forget it method just dialing to 9 to 12 psi and leaving it. Does it matter if I rack to my keg and put it on the gas right away or should i rack to my keg, throw it in the fridge and put the gas to it when it has cooled ? I assume it doesnt really matter and will just take longer to carb if I start it off at room temp ?

Thanks for the help
 
Get it on the gas as soon as possible. It will start absorbing gas while it's cooling, but of course more slowly. In any case, there is no harm and it certainly won't take LONGER to carb than if you waited for it to chill down.
 
Hey Bobby.....or any other kegging experts out there,

A couple of questions/concerns. I have been kegging for about 7 kegs worth now and am noticing a consistent pattern. Here's what I do....I rack to keg, purge the O2 out, put it under 30 lbs. to seal the lid, turn off the CO2, and pop it in the keezer for a full day to chill. The next day I turn the Co2 back up to 30 lbs. for 24-30 hrs and then purge, set it at 11 lbs. and wait about 1 1/2 wks and it's good to go. I leave the pressure at 11 lbs. for my serving pressure as well.

Here's what is happening with EVERY keg....Everything is great to start, great carbonation, a proper head on the beer, and absolutely no issues to start. However, as the volume in the kegs begin to fall with consumption, I start to gradually have more and more foaming issues. When they get down to maybe 2 gallons (+ or -), I get 50% foam/50% beer and it gets progressively worse until the keg kicks and I replace.

I have a coffin keezer and it is well insulated with it's own individual temperature probe that controls the power to two Inductor fans (one for drawing cold air into the coffin and one to exhause back out). I am able to maintain an acceptable temperature differential between the coffin and the keezer, so I am certain it's not due to CO2 coming out of solution due to warm beer lines. I ordered my system through keg connections and it came with 5 ft. beer lines. I realize that many people recommend significantly longer lines (10 ft.) to offer more resistance and slow the flow down, but wouldn't I be experiencing foaming issues all of the time if it were a flow rate issue?

Any advice would be great.....from anyone for that matter. I'm just getting a little frustrated that every keg goes so smoothly with carbonation at first, but gradually declines with foaming issues as the beer volume decreases.

Help!
 
Hey Bobby.....or any other kegging experts out there,

A couple of questions/concerns. I have been kegging for about 7 kegs worth now and am noticing a consistent pattern. Here's what I do....I rack to keg, purge the O2 out, put it under 30 lbs. to seal the lid, turn off the CO2, and pop it in the keezer for a full day to chill. The next day I turn the Co2 back up to 30 lbs. for 24-30 hrs and then purge, set it at 11 lbs. and wait about 1 1/2 wks and it's good to go. I leave the pressure at 11 lbs. for my serving pressure as well.

Here's what is happening with EVERY keg....Everything is great to start, great carbonation, a proper head on the beer, and absolutely no issues to start. However, as the volume in the kegs begin to fall with consumption, I start to gradually have more and more foaming issues. When they get down to maybe 2 gallons (+ or -), I get 50% foam/50% beer and it gets progressively worse until the keg kicks and I replace.

I have a coffin keezer and it is well insulated with it's own individual temperature probe that controls the power to two Inductor fans (one for drawing cold air into the coffin and one to exhause back out). I am able to maintain an acceptable temperature differential between the coffin and the keezer, so I am certain it's not due to CO2 coming out of solution due to warm beer lines. I ordered my system through keg connections and it came with 5 ft. beer lines. I realize that many people recommend significantly longer lines (10 ft.) to offer more resistance and slow the flow down, but wouldn't I be experiencing foaming issues all of the time if it were a flow rate issue?

Any advice would be great.....from anyone for that matter. I'm just getting a little frustrated that every keg goes so smoothly with carbonation at first, but gradually declines with foaming issues as the beer volume decreases.

Help!

I dont really know what I am talking about but why do you keep bumping to 30 and waiting ? Why not just set it at 11 and let it sit for 2 weeks ?

I have no idea if that is your issue because I literally just received my kegging equipment yesterday but was just wondering.
 
Thanks for the response Wingfan13. Setting at 30 psi for the first 24 to 30 hours, purging and then setting at 11 psi, from what I have read and in my experience, cuts the 2 solid weeks of waiting for fully carbed beer nearly in half. Usually at one week with this method it's most of the way there and withing a couple of more days is perfect.

I think that my foaming issues have something to do with my system as opposed to overcarbing with this quick burst method and then setting it and forgetting it. I don't do the whole 30 psi and roll or shake the hell out of it, so this method doesn't really cause much risk of overcarbing. Besides, if it were an overcarbing issue from the initial 30 psi burst for 24 hrs., I would think that the foaming issues would be immediate, not later when the beer volume drops with the keg. On the other hand, I could be completely wrong on this. :confused:

Anyone else have any ideas?
 
I crash cool my beers for 3 to 4 days, then keg, purge and pressurize at 35 PSI for 48 hours. I then purge and set to 14 PSI for serving. It takes another 48 hours or so before the carbonation is about right--for 4 days total. But I typically just wait a few weeks.
 
In my opinion, what's happening is that your beer, when pouring without too much foam is actually still undercarbed by a certain degree. Just taking a wild guess, maybe when you first start pouring and sense that it's "carbed" it's really sitting around 2 volumes for instance. After another week at 11psi, maybe it creeps to 2.5 volumes and another week later it gets to equilibrium at say 2.75 volumes (of course I don't know the actual number because I don't know your exact temp).

Now, there will always be some CO2 knocked out of solution during the pour which is why we get a head on the pint in the first place. It's just a matter of how much agitation there is, how much pressure drop, and how much temp rise it experiences on the way out. When the carb level is relatively low, and it experiences slightly warmer lines at the faucet, not much gets knocked out. Once you have full carbonation, that small rise (coupled with the pressure drop due to slightly shorter than optimal lines) will knock enough CO2 out to cause a chain reaction to foam city.

You're already doing your best to keep temps consistent so my only advice to you is to put 10 foot lines in. Try one.
 
Thanks Bobby, 10 ft. lines it is. My local HBS sells the lines for $0.50 per ft., so I'm going to bite the bullet and lenghten the lines. Hopefully that is the answer to my problem. I'm also going to fiddle around with my dual input/ dual output Love Controller and see if I can bring the temperature differential down a little lower in my coffin, without the fans running continuously, to ensure that my beer lines and shanks stay nice and cold. I did some experimenting early on and was trying to maintain the same temperature in the coffin that was in the keezer, but the fans were running continuously. With a 5 degree differential, the fans were still cycling on every 10 minutes or so for a couple of minutes. I now am at 8 degrees of differential, with my keezer at 38 degrees and my coffin at 46 degrees, so the fans cycling is at a reasonable rate. I have heard that as long as the differential is below 10 degrees, it should be fine, but obviously I am not an expert on the subject.
 
OK, so here's where I'm at. I contacted Keg Connection today to order my 10' beer lines (3/16" ID) and the tech. guy there wanted me to do a couple of tests before wasting money on longer beer lines. He said that their studies and experience have shown that the 5 ft. liquid lines that they supply with their kits, are the ideal length for most applications. The problem that I am experiencing (no foaming issues until the beer volume drops, then all hell breaks loose!), has been a recent complaint that they have encountered at their business and they are asking those of us having the issues to do a few tests to make sure that their regulators aren't defective.

Basically the tech. at KC wanted me to determine if it was an over-carbonation issue or a flow rate issue. On one of the kegs that has a low volume of beer remaining and major foaming issues, I slowly purge the keg down to 5 psi and readjust the regulator to hold that the 5 psi pressure, so that I could pull a pint at a much lower serving pressue. If it were an over- carbonation issue, in theory, I would continue to have major foaming issues even at the lower serving pressure. If it was a flow rate issue, then at the lower serving pressure, the foaming problem should be resolved. So, I pulled a pint at 11 psi and it was 1/3 beer and 2/3 foam, which is the problem that I have been having. After purging the keg down to 5 psi and then holding that pressure with an adjustment of the regulator.....all foaming issues were resolved. :tank:

So basically, Bobby was right once again. I don't think that it has anything to do with the volume of beer remaining in the keg. It has to do with the fact that I am most likely pulling pints early before the true CO2 volumes/ carbonation levels have been acheived. Hence, no foaming issues early on in a keg, but progressively worsening problems as time goes on (not necessarily as beer volume goes down). Once fully carbed and with the 11 psi that I keep my regulator set at, the pressue is too high for serving and foaming occurs. I explained this theory to the guy at KC and he said "once your keg is fully carbonated, drop the serving pressue down somewhere between 5 and 8 psi, leave it there for the remainder of the keg, and the foaming should go away". It was my understanding that backing the psi down would gradually drop the CO2 volume of the beer as it equalizes with the lower pressure in the head space. He said that as long as I do not purge all of the pressure out of the head space, a 5 to 8 psi "blanket" would prevent the carbonation level from dropping noticeable levels. I don't necessarily agree with his theory.

I'm going to my HBS today to get 10 ft. lines to offer more resistance to the flow rate of my system and hopefully resolve the problem once and for all. Any other words of advice would be great as I try to get my system dialed in. Thanks Bobby and the rest of the HBT members for your advice. I'll let you know how it goes. :mug:
 
Great thread! I will be racking a beer into my new keg for the first time tonight! I plan to give the "burst" carbing a shot. I think I'll start at 30 PSI for 24 hours and then lower it down to 12ish and let it sit for 10 days or so. fridge temps are right around 39-40 degrees. Does this sound about right?
 
I really really don't like talking smack about other vendors but I have a deep seated peeve with the concept of dropping down to serving pressures. The argument that 5 foot lines are ideal, and oh, as long as you drop the pressure is flawed and makes me think that KC has cut thousands of feet of line down to 5 foot lengths and is just trying to work through the inventory. Of course I don't know that but it's one theory as to why they would er on the short side when it so obviously doesn't work for so many people. I mean, even using 7 feet as the baseline would probably eliminate a lot of problems.

I also don't know about the 10F differential at the faucet. In my opinion the 5' lines coupled with the temp change would present a problem at 2.5 volumes and above. Just a guess here but if you can run the fan full time to lower that differential to like 5-6F and then extend the lines to 8-10' I think you'll be a happy kegger.
 
Thanks Bobby! You have no idea how much I have learned from your posts and your youtube videos on brewing. You are a valuable asset to HBT and I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and experience with all of us. Keep up the good work! :mug:

p.s. - I'll be ordering my weldless fittings from you for my keg conversions soon, as I gradually progress into all grain brewing. Wish me luck as I embark on my 3 tier system build.
 
I have a deep seated peeve with the concept of dropping down to serving pressures. The argument that 5 foot lines are ideal, and oh, as long as you drop the pressure is flawed
+1

Totally agree with this. In my experience on my keg system I get the same thing. The lines with party taps get to a point where they need to have the keg burped and pressure lowered. Total crap.


Point being.... we all get you can lower the serving pressure to work around an unbalanced system. It is just that many of us don't want to have to... we want it balanced!
 
Perhaps this question has already been answered, but something is nagging at me. If I carb at a certain level, then lower the pressure for serving, wouldn't the carbonation/co2 volume eventually drop to match the serving pressure? And if so, how much of a difference would one be able to notice? Would it really make a difference? I've only force-carbed a couple of cornies at this point, and admittedly I'm just a hack at this point. So far it's been hit-or-miss until I get to the right carb level.
 
Perhaps this question has already been answered, but something is nagging at me. If I carb at a certain level, then lower the pressure for serving, wouldn't the carbonation/co2 volume eventually drop to match the serving pressure? And if so, how much of a difference would one be able to notice? Would it really make a difference? I've only force-carbed a couple of cornies at this point, and admittedly I'm just a hack at this point. So far it's been hit-or-miss until I get to the right carb level.

Yes and no.

If you reduce to serving pressure and serve at a party for 3-4 hours only, then your carbonation would not drop off that much (keep it cold - the colder the better)

After serving is complete, pressure back up to maintenance pressure.

If you don't, you will lose carbonation to the head space - and the more head space you have, the more CO2 will come out of solution.
 
@ Brewer3401 "Maintenance pressure" helps me to understand this much better. Thank you. So my suspicions were correct about equillibrating pressures.

@ Bobby M Is there a happy medium or suggested way to handle this? My understanding is that if I dispense at the higher/maintenance pressure, I'll get more foam. Is this a situation where longer dispensing lines prevent foaming? Or am I way off?
 
@ Brewer3401 "Maintenance pressure" helps me to understand this much better. Thank you. So my suspicions were correct about equillibrating pressures.

@ Bobby M Is there a happy medium or suggested way to handle this? My understanding is that if I dispense at the higher/maintenance pressure, I'll get more foam. Is this a situation where longer dispensing lines prevent foaming? Or am I way off?

If you want to dispense at maintenance pressure, you need a much longer hose from the keg to the tap. This is what balancing a system means.
 
Something I am now working towards is lines more dedicated to my planned volumes. i.e. for hefes or higher carbed beers, have a line with just a bit more resistance to use

You can also use those mixer sticks to help keep line lengths smaller, which is what I am currently playing with. Unfortunately I don't know of an accepted resistance/ft that they add. any body aware of that number?

My current plan is to get some of the fancy barrier line in 3/16, and use epoxy mixers in the dip tube so I don't have to have super long barrier lines. Apparently the barrier lines have lower resistance than the bevlex lines do.
 
Ok, made a noob mistake here. I used priming sugar AND carbed my beer by shaking it with the CO2 pressure. Dumb, i know. So, now i have over carbed beer. I pulled it oof CO2 and released the pressure off the keg over the last day. Question is.....what do i do next? Do i let it sit?

Thanks
 
Ok, made a noob mistake here. I used priming sugar AND carbed my beer by shaking it with the CO2 pressure. Dumb, i know. So, now i have over carbed beer. I pulled it oof CO2 and released the pressure off the keg over the last day. Question is.....what do i do next? Do i let it sit?

Thanks

It will likely take a few days, keep releasing that pressure.


_
 
I'd let it come up to room temp so the yeast will eat all of your priming sugar faster.

Give it at least 7 days and keep blowing down the keg 2x per day

There is a pop off (SRV) valve on the keg, but I'd still purge it daily

Then drop temp and force carb it
 
Hey guys,

I am attempting my first "patient" method. I've always done shake and bake before and it's worked alright. It has been 1 week since I set my Keg to 13 PSI at 45deg, but I am hardly carbonated.

My question is, should I have the gas connected to the line out (black beverage out)? I have never done this, even on the shake and bake method, and thought that it was a no no for the 2 week method as well. I read on this guide to connect to the black beverage out.

http://www.homebrew.com/articles/article12018101.shtml

Any guidance would help.
 
Hey guys,

I am attempting my first "patient" method. I've always done shake and bake before and it's worked alright. It has been 1 week since I set my Keg to 13 PSI at 45deg, but I am hardly carbonated.

My question is, should I have the gas connected to the line out (black beverage out)? I have never done this, even on the shake and bake method, and thought that it was a no no for the 2 week method as well. I read on this guide to connect to the black beverage out.

http://www.homebrew.com/articles/article12018101.shtml

Any guidance would help.

I connected to the gas in line and in two weeks it was perfect. I am not sure why they would tell you to connect to the beverage out. The Co2 dissolves in to the beer so I dont see how that would help. Although I am pretty new to kegging also.
 
I connected to the gas in line and in two weeks it was perfect. I am not sure why they would tell you to connect to the beverage out. The Co2 dissolves in to the beer so I dont see how that would help. Although I am pretty new to kegging also.

I've seen this before

Some think by putting the CO2 in the beer out (long dip tube) that the CO2 will dissolve faster by being pushed into the bottom of the keg.

Don't know if it works or not.

34F beer @ 30 psi for 24 hours, then 2 weeks at 12 psi works perfectly.

I've shaken before when I wanted beer quickly, but not in that situation now (and I've never gotten fish eyes the few times I shook - fish eyes may be from something other than shaking to carbonate)
 
Although in theory bubbling Co2 up through the column of beer will accelerate the absorption rate due to the increased gas to beer surface area, the increase of area is very minimal and the contact time might as well be zero. The only way it would help is if you diffused the gas with a .5 micron stone. Also, the goofy thing about that link is that they want you to add 60psi through the diptube and then shake the hell out of the keg. The benefit of the increase surface area by bubbling through is worth about .00001% of the absorption rate increase when contrasted to the shaking process.
 
Although in theory bubbling Co2 up through the column of beer will accelerate the absorption rate due to the increased gas to beer surface area, the increase of area is very minimal and the contact time might as well be zero. The only way it would help is if you diffused the gas with a .5 micron stone. Also, the goofy thing about that link is that they want you to add 60psi through the diptube and then shake the hell out of the keg. The benefit of the increase surface area by bubbling through is worth about .00001% of the absorption rate increase when contrasted to the shaking process.

I agree - stone on bottom of dip tube would be helpful - but, you would need to modify your beer out dip tube (since it almost touches the bottom of the keg)

Then, you would have to replace with regular dip tube.

Lots of handling and potential for contamination, not to mention PIA

If I needed carbonated beer quickly, I'd do the shake thing at whatever maintenance pressure is + 2 psi on top to account for the beer warming up while you're shaking the guts out of it.
 
My LHBS has a modified Corney lid with an extra fitting to which an SS tube is attached with a .5 micron SS sintered stone at the other end. It's sold as promoting quicker absorption during a forced carb.

I haven't succumbed to the offer as I have a wide and deep enough pipeline that I just don't need to do quick carbing, but I have wondered if the thing would actually help...

Cheers!
 
I crash cool my beers in the fermenter for 3 days prior to kegging. That helps with clarity but it also helps with quicker CO2 absorption after kegging. I keg and hook up the CO2 to 35 PSI for 48 hours. I then purge and set to my serving pressure of 15 PSI. After another two days, the beer is ready to drink (4 days total after kegging). But to be honest, I prefer to wait a full week (2 days of 35 PSI and 5 of serving PSI). That's quick enough for me. FYI, my fridge is set to 43F. If yours is colder, you might try with 1 day at 35 PSI and go from there.
 
My beer is at 38 degrees but my CO2 tank is at room temperature. I purged my keg this evening after setting it 30 PSI (did not leave gas line connected, I know better now) and then set the pressure to 18 PSI. The desired pressure is 12 PSI according to the chart but I am trying to compensate for the temperature difference between the gas at room temperature and the beer at 38 degrees. I have placed the keg and tank into the fridge so they both will be at 38 degrees.

Was I correct in compensating up to 18 PSI for any deficiencies caused by the drop in temperature?
 
My beer is at 38 degrees but my CO2 tank is at room temperature. I purged my keg this evening after setting it 30 PSI (did not leave gas line connected, I know better now) and then set the pressure to 18 PSI. The desired pressure is 12 PSI according to the chart but I am trying to compensate for the temperature difference between the gas at room temperature and the beer at 38 degrees. I have placed the keg and tank into the fridge so they both will be at 38 degrees.

Was I correct in compensating up to 18 PSI for any deficiencies caused by the drop in temperature?

Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but there is no need t
to compensate for the fact that your co2 tank is either room temp or on the fridge. The dial when turned to a certain psi is correct, the reading that changes is how much is left in the tank.

I use the set it and forget it method. I dial to between 10 and 12, let it sit for 2 weeks and it is perfect.
 
Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but there is no need t
to compensate for the fact that your co2 tank is either room temp or on the fridge. The dial when turned to a certain psi is correct, the reading that changes is how much is left in the tank.

I use the set it and forget it method. I dial to between 10 and 12, let it sit for 2 weeks and it is perfect.

I think you're right.

The only thing I notice is if I set my pressure at say 12 psi, then put the CO2 cylinder in the frig, the pressure seems to creep up 1-2 psi as the cylinder gets chilled - not a big deal, just blow down and reset to whatever pressure you want it to be.
 
Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but there is no need t
to compensate for the fact that your co2 tank is either room temp or on the fridge. The dial when turned to a certain psi is correct, the reading that changes is how much is left in the tank.

I use the set it and forget it method. I dial to between 10 and 12, let it sit for 2 weeks and it is perfect.

Your right. Now that I think about it the example I had read was related to the tank not the keg. Last night I dialed it down to 12 anyway and checked on it again this morning and it was still at 12. There's a lot of info out there on kegging but I must say that this sticky has been the most concise place for information.

Thanks for the insight.
 
What is everyone's opinion of diffusion stones to speed up this process?


After reading a few threads about it, some people think it does nothing, and others love it.
 
What is everyone's opinion of diffusion stones to speed up this process?


After reading a few threads about it, some people think it does nothing, and others love it.

I believe it MAY speed up the carbonation process.

But, if you've ever used a stone to aerate wort or a starter, you do see bubbles coming to the top of the surface.

However, aerating with a stone does put some oxygen into the wort.

If you need quick beer, do the "pressure up to maintenance and shake the guts out of the keg" method.
 
I've seen a youtube video of a professional brewery where they use what looks like a diffusing stone in the hose that takes the beer from the fermenter to the bright tank. Sort of the same thing as an oxygen stone when going from chiller to fermenter. They take beer from the ferment and pass it through a filter, chiller (to get it down to serving temp) and then a carbonation stone all while the beer is in motion from the fermenter to the brite tank from which they keg it. Perhaps this just jumpstarts the carbonation process for them - I don't know, but it must do something....
 
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