Input on Wiring Diagram

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ders

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So I think I am ready to move from extract to AG and I am in the process of accumulating parts for a single tier electric setup. I was wondering if people would mind looking at the diagram I put together and let me know what I am missing or overlooking. There are a couple things to know about the diagram:

- Can I use the switches in between the PID and the SSRs to control when the PIDs are allowed to control the heating elements or should I just use them on the hot lines before the SSR?

- The BK PID is different because all I need is something to control the element manually and I thought I would save a few bucks...

- I am planning on using an inline GFCI breaker in my power cord.

- I was a little confused on fuse locations so I wanted to make sure those were in the right places.

- I didn't include the temp probes in this diagram so I know they are missing.

Anyway, any advice would be appreciated. Thanks and Cheers!



Newest diagram at post #37
 
Couple of notes:

Looks like you are wanting to use automotive blade style fuses ... I would lean towards glass barrels or better yet, small DIN mount breakers (if you have the cash - look at Altech). Look into using a force coil contactor for your mains and be sure to wire its coil through an e-stop. Yes you have a GFCI but the instant shutdown of a mushroom e-stop button is just a nice added feature. If you think you will expand later you can use WAGO DIN mount Cage Clamp terminal blocks that have terminal connectors and potential separators that will make wiring and changing wiring a breeze. Also make sure that you have great grounds - it is an often overlooked element in electrical control systems and can drastically improve (depending on the style of controller and thermocouples you plan to use) the responsiveness of a PID system. Also don't forget to ground your chassis, control box and possibly your kettles if they are not bolted to your stand. If you are looking for parts my suggestions are as follows (assuming an reasonably healthy budget) ... You could also use a force coil relay on each power feed to the Elements and drop an SSR to save some money - one leg with always be hot when the relay is engaged but might let you spend some cash elsewhere.

E-Stop Contactor - Sprecher & Schuh Force Coil Control Rated
E-Stop Button - IDEC Mushroom Head
Monitor Lights and Switches - Sprecher & Schuh D7 LED series
Fuses Holders and Terminal Blocks - WAGO DIN Cage Clamp 240 series
Enclosure - Hoffman Nema 4 Rated
Breakers - Altech DIN Mount Breakers
Grounding Braid and Lugs - McMaster Carr

Just My 2 Cents
 
Have you thought of throwing in a couple dpdt relays to be able to switch from high to low for your heating elements? You could use a high selection for cleaning. I would use the camco ultra low watt density for the rims element as it will be in direct contact with wort. Other than those rwo questions, it looks great to me.
 
I would suggest a dpdt before the ssr, ssr's can leak current. Also, if you bump up to 50 amp, you could run the rims and one of the 240 elements. You could wire the 240 elements on a 3 way and leave the rims on a 2 way switch. You can use the auber pid in manual or auto mode, might look cleaner with all the same pids.
 
Thanks everyone. I do plan on running my HLT and RIMS elements at the same time. They should draw about 25 amps together so that should be ok right? Wberry, thanks for the suggestions. It will take me a bit of time to digest that and do some more research but I will post back when I refine the diagram a bit more.
 
right but I wont be running my BK element with any other element. The HLT element is a 240V 3000 watt element.
 
missed that
3000/240 = 12.5
1500/120 = 12.5
pumps = 1.4
pumps = 1.4
total = 28
30 *.8 = 24 amps
So you are 1 amp over the limit even without pumps.

You need a 40 or 50 amp service
 
@ders

Sorry if I overwhelmed you. Coming from the entertainment/industrial automation world, I tend to reach for very robust and flexible solutions. Yes it is likely overkill; but, you will end up with components that will last a lifetime and are pretty easy to troubleshoot. If you want I can post links to most of those components and you should be able to find many on e-bay for a fraction of retail.

Best of luck and I will try to monitor the thread.
 
No worries Wberry, I am here to learn. milldoggy, I think I am missing something. Should I only try to pull 80% of the 30 amps at any one time? I did look through Kals site. Ah ok I see now. So to add a 40 amp service is that as simple as installing one in my fuse box?
 
I am no expert, but I believe code only allows you to pull 80% of a circuit. Any more, I believe is a fire hazard. Finding 40amp SSR and DPDT are not that hard. You could use a stove plug(stoves are 50 amps a lot of times). You will need a 40 or 50 amp GFCI breaker. You cannot use the inline cable. All of us in the states should not use that xerox inline cable regardless. The GFCI in the cable does not trip fast enough for code. A breaker is the best and safest option.
 
IMO the 80% limit is kinda important with resistive and electro-mechanical loads like heaters, motors etc. As the components age they can draw more amperage, shed leakage current, etc. The 20% overhead will allow for that. For control circuits I tend to cut much tighter unless I foresee expansion. Lastly, some cheaper residential breakers can wear out/start false tripping if you are always pulling near or at their rating.
 
well, I definitely want to keep it safe. Maybe I will run the RIMS element and maybe the pumps from a separate 120V 20A service. Seems like it would work.
 
you are fine with pumps and 5500 watts on a 240/30amp circuit. If you are going to do this, you might as well run a 5500 watt element in your HLT. You can set up the rims on a separate 20 amp circuit.
 
I keep on seeing posts about this "80% rule" and I am convinced that there is somewhat of a bit of misunderstanding about this NEC "rule". First: The rule applies to the home designer and electrician planning and wiring the home. Second: It applies to multi drop circuits, not single drop circuits as we use in electric brew systems. And last: Someone buys a home and moves in. Does he have to buy the NEC and study it so that they are safe with the electrical system? I think not. That is what circuit breakers are for. The circuits should be designed & wired per Code - the electricians job!

/venting
 
To the OP: Another thought. A fix for the problem of power balance.
Use the 3000W 240V element for the HLT and then use a 240V/2000W, 9-1/2", LWD Resistored Stainless Steel (SP10869GL) element for your RIMS. (Don't use a 120V element) That's a total of 5000W which equals 20.9A - add your pumps and PIDs and you are well under everybodys magic numbers.
 
I don't know the code, but I'm with P-J on this one. A 30A circuit is rated for 30A. No home owner should have to de-rate the circuits or even know about that. For new home construction it would make perfect sense to apply an 80% rule to give the home owner some margin to add stuff. If it really was a fire hazard to use the circuits to its rating then there would be millions of fires waiting to happen around the country. The circuit breaker is there to prevent the fire hazard, and it will. In a 100 year old house it may be a different matter though because of a deteriorating electrical system.
 
Quaffer - I agree fully except for these cases where you have lifespan concerns with equipment. As the brushes on your pumps wear and your elements age and gather crud they will draw slightly more current then their "as new" spec suggests. In my book I just use 80% for head room and to allow for additional equipment additions as opposed to hitting your head on current limits at your first upgrade.
 
You cannot use the inline cable. All of us in the states should not use that xerox inline cable regardless. The GFCI in the cable does not trip fast enough for code. A breaker is the best and safest option.

What is your basis for saying this? Do you have any stats or evidence? I use one so obviously I'd like to stay alive.
 
Kal found recently that the cable does not meet nec standards for a gfci, that is all I said, does not meet code. IIRC, tha cable is a 10 ma trip, code calls for 5. I will contiune to use mine
 
As you dig into the NEC/NFPA you will notice several different spec's. They relate to time/current buildup for tripping in different environments. There are specs for Residential, Commercial, Construction use etc.
With what we are doing, Residential environment with Industrial Equipment, it is hard to classify them into a discrete category effectively. My take is to be as safe as you see fit and apply the most stringent rules that you can without creating the Cowboy After OSHA diagram. The spec difference between 5, 8 mA, etc is often disputed in various applications and the balance between nuisance tripping and fault detection can be a very fine line with resistive and electro-mechanical loads. Personally, this is the line where I feel that many people overlook the significance of proper grounding in the first place ... they focus so heavily on GFCI's, and other current interrupt designs that they miss the importance of a properly designed grounding system - both at the current and signal level.
Sorry for the tangent; but, proper current and signal grounding is a pet-peeve of mine.

***DISCLAIMER*** - remember we are a bunch of guys on the internet ... make sure to hire a licensed electrician who is bonded so that you can sue them when things go wrong.
 
Quaffer - I agree fully except for these cases where you have lifespan concerns with equipment. As the brushes on your pumps wear and your elements age and gather crud they will draw slightly more current then their "as new" spec suggests. In my book I just use 80% for head room and to allow for additional equipment additions as opposed to hitting your head on current limits at your first upgrade.

OK, I'll buy that.

If the circuit breaker repeatedly trips then there is a problem that needs fixing. They should rarely trip if ever.
 
Thanks for the discussion guys! P-J I will take your advice and move to a 240volt element in my RIMS tube. I will post an updated diagram when I figure out how I am going to fuse the inside of the control panel.

Thanks again!
 
If you are making that move then you could swap out for 230V pumps, 230V PIDS and add a 24VDC PS to run your pilot lights/relays and loose the neutral. It would simplify the design and using higher voltage pumps would lower your total amperage draw.
 
If you are making that move then you could swap out for 230V pumps, 230V PIDS and add a 24VDC PS to run your pilot lights/relays and loose the neutral. It would simplify the design and using higher voltage pumps would lower your total amperage draw.
I believe he is using Auber Instrument PIDs and they are set up for power input of 85V to 264V AC. His diagram shows 240V 4 wire. The pumps can be set up with one on line 1 to neutral and the other on line 2 to neutral. This will balance the total load across the 240V supply. No need to replace the pumps.

Edit: Another thought - use toggle switches instead of the illuminated switched. Or if he really wants them illuminated, just get them with 120V LEDs. The neutral is already there.
 
I plan on doing something very similar to this: I'll be installing 240VAC elements in the HLT and BK, giving my brewstand the option for EHERMS; and, I'll be constructing an 120VAC ERIMS tube, giving my brewstand the option for ERIMS.

I plan on installing a 3-position selector switch for the HLT/BK elements along with two DPDT relays just like kal does. This would eliminate two of those SSRs. Have you considered doing this?

Also, I will second Wberry's emphasis on grounding everything.
 
Ok I THINK I made the correct changes. Again, the temp probes are missing. I added breakers inside the box, three DPDT switches, an e-stop, a new RIMS element and a 3 pos maintained selector switch to only allow either the BK or HLT element to be on at any one time. Thanks again!

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo223/andersnelson/wiringDiag-1.jpg


wiringDiag-1.jpg
 
Wonder if you could add another contact block on the 3way switch so the rims would only activate when the bk element is off,
 
Looks like I spoke too soon.

I'm also considering doing the 3-position switch (for the HLT/BK) plus 2-position switch (for the MLT). I'd like to know what other people's thoughts are on that.

What are the breakers inside the box for?

These pictured wiring diagrams are sometimes hard to read. For example, I can't tell exactly how your DPDT relays are wired. You have 6 terminals and 9 wires all on one relay. If you could please provide a little more detail so that we can give you better quality input.
 
...
These pictured wiring diagrams are sometimes hard to read. For example, I can't tell exactly how your DPDT relays are wired. You have 6 terminals and 9 wires all on one relay. If you could please provide a little more detail so that we can give you better quality input.
I also find it difficult to follow.

Wonder if you could add another contact block on the 3way switch so the rims would only activate when the bk element is off,
You are right. (I think) Best I can figure the way it is now - The HLT and BK are interlocked. BUT - It is possible to fire the RIMS along with either the HLT or the BK. That's over 30A (not counting PIDS or pumps) with the BK and RIMS fired.
 
Sorry it is hard to understand. What I did was this:

-Two hot lines going in (red and black)
-Then I ran a line from the incoming black line to the switch which then goes back to the DPDT to control the open or close state of the switch.
-Added a neutral line since it will need one.
-after the DPDT I added two wires to an indicator light which will light up with the switch is open.
-then one hot line goes to the element and the other goes to the SSR which then goes to the element.

I did all this in photoshop which was rather painful but I tried to make it as organized as possible. The breakers replaced the blade style fuses I used in the original diagram.
 
Sorry it is hard to understand. What I did was this:

-Two hot lines going in (red and black)
-Then I ran a line from the incoming black line to the switch which then goes back to the DPDT to control the open or close state of the switch.
-Added a neutral line since it will need one.
-after the DPDT I added two wires to an indicator light which will light up with the switch is open.
-then one hot line goes to the element and the other goes to the SSR which then goes to the element.

That makes sense, but I usually see the SSR before the DPDT relay. What I mean by that is the SSR between the PID and the DPDT relay, instead of the SSR between the DPDT and the element. I suppose it doesn't really matter though... :confused:

Providing a better schematic would really help us with giving input and would really help you with troubleshooting any future problems. This is some dangerous stuff, so be as thorough as you can.

I did all this in photoshop which was rather painful but I tried to make it as organized as possible. The breakers replaced the blade style fuses I used in the original diagram.

Why the replacement?

I am not trying to bug you or anything. I'm just working on something very similar and also trying to understand all of it.

Wonder if you could add another contact block on the 3way switch so the rims would only activate when the bk element is off,

I'm conjuring up something to solve this problem. I want to use the MLT element in an ERIMS tube, while the HLT/BK elements are for EHERMS. I'll post what I come up with as soon as I can.
 
I was using WBerry's suggestion from the second post and added the breakers inside the box, however inline tube fuses were also suggested...and I may go that rout anyway.

I will work on tracking down actual diagrams for the different switches so that I can actually show where the wires will connect.

Look forward to seeing your solution to the 3 position switch issue. I was just going to make sure I was careful but it never hurts to build in something that mitigates user error.
 
CPanelDiag.png


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo223/andersnelson/CPanelDiag.png

Ok here is my next crack at a cpanel diagram. Sorry about the SSR symbol...it was the only one that came with the program. I simplified this one again to make sure I had the fundamentals taken care of. I may try to add a three pos switch to only allow power to the BK element or the RIMS and the HLT elements. Ok, fire away.
 
Good catch!
Yes, the LEDs need to be in parallel rather than in series with the contactor coils.

I learned the hard way when I tested my newly finished control box. I couldn't figure why i wasn't getting enough power to the contactor until I measured the voltage after the LED. It dropped from 120 to 4 volts. The LED itself doesn't take much to light it so for 120v LEDs a resister is added. I didn't think of that. After some snipping of several zipties I got it wired correctly.
 
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