Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

eltorrente said:

I went with:
3lbs light DME
.75lbs Crystal 40
.5 oz Citra boil
.5 oz Citra after boil
1/2 Cinammon stick (Added right after boil, then put into fermenter)
Nottingham Yeast
.75 gallons of wort after boil
4.5 gallons Apple Juice

With that amount of Crystal, I couldn't see a reason for more grains focused on head retention.

I started with 1.25 gallons of water. I steeped the Crystal for 30 mins at 155 degrees. I then added the .5 oz of Citra as I heated up to boil - basically FWH addition. I added the 3lbs of DME and boiled for 30 mins, which took it down to .75 gallons. After the boil I added the half cinammon stick and another .5oz of Citra hops.

I cooled the pot down in the sink of cold water, then mixed it in with the Apple Juice. I used 4.5 Gallons of Apple Juice and the batch was 5.25 gallons, and an OG of 1.068. I dumped the whole pot into the fermenter and didn't bother trying to filter anything.

It started to bubble slowly after about 6 hours.

I'm starting the fermentation at 65 degrees, and will raise it one degree every 12 hours until I hit 69 degrees. I'll hold it there until the kruesen starts to drop, then I'll pull it out and let it finish at room temp. The half cinammon stick is sitting in the fermenter, hopefully it'll give a little bit of flavor without being overpowering.

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So it's been about a month since I brewed this up, and have it carbonated and in the keg. When I first kegged it after 3 weeks, it was slightly tart but was still drinkable. Now it's really good.

My FG was 1.005 - 8.4% alcohol.

Really nice lacing and head retention. It almost tastes like a white wine, or at least has a similar affect on my palate. The bitterness is perfect, and there's an alcohol heat with a slight tartness and lingering sweetness. It's a nice drink. I've been drinking about 3 per day since I first kegged it - so I should bottle it pretty quick before I go through it all.

After I cold crashed for a few days at 35, I put it in a keg and used gelatin. Right when I transferred, I shook the keg under pressure to carb. It seemed to clear up within 2 days.

I'm going to bottle up about a case of this stuff and let it age a bit, but it's already quite good and I'm very happy with it.

Also, I used Yeast Nutrient to ensure there was a good environment for the yeast. The ferment never smelled like sulphur or any sort of bad smell, and it was a strong ferment all the way through.


Lacing:

blackhammer said:

"Steep the 60L and torrified wheat in .75 gallons of water @ 155 degrees for 30 mins.
Sparge with .25 gallons 170 degree water and throw away grains.
Add DME and bring to a boil.
Add hops when boiling starts and boil for 30 mins."

My kettle has a 1 gallon per hour boil off rate. After the 30 minute boil, I would be adding 1/2 gallon of wort to the fermenter rather than a full gallon. Should I increase the original amount of wort by 1/2 gallon or just start with 1 gallon for the boil?

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I would shoot for one gallon post boil,but if I ended up with less would not lose sleep and just use more juice.

Thanks BrewerBear, that's what I was thinking. I appreciate the info!

Well i got the cider to ferment using cider with potassium sorbate... Took about a week... And 2 different large starters but she's chugging along

Subscribed! Gotta try this

Hey guys, I'm a noob and have a question.
1.Regarding bottling: I hear people talk about bottle pasturizing when making ciders to avoid bottle bombs. Same thing apply with this recipe?

TheToE said:

Hey guys, I'm a noob and have a question.
1.Regarding bottling: I hear people talk about bottle pasturizing when making ciders to avoid bottle bombs. Same thing apply with this recipe?

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In my experience if you're using a wine or champagne yeast, yes pasteurizing is a good idea if you don't want to keep the bottles refrigerated. If you're using a beer yeast, like Nottingham or S04-S05 you'll be fine.

My understanding is the wine/champagne yeast will eat ALL of the available sugars post-fermentation while beer yeast will leave some.

TheToE said:

Hey guys, I'm a noob and have a question.
1.Regarding bottling: I hear people talk about bottle pasturizing when making ciders to avoid bottle bombs. Same thing apply with this recipe?

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Answer: It depends.... It depends on how much sugar you're using. A few ounces to prime and bottle condition, don't worry about pasteurizing. It'll act just like beer.

But, if you're adding enough sugar to prime AND sweeten, which a lot of folks do with cider, be ready to pasteurize when the times right.

jeff62217 said:

In my experience if you're using a wine or champagne yeast, yes pasteurizing is a good idea if you don't want to keep the bottles refrigerated. If you're using a beer yeast, like Nottingham or S04-S05 you'll be fine.

My understanding is the wine/champagne yeast will eat ALL of the available sugars post-fermentation while beer yeast will leave some.

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Beer yeast will still eat all simple sugars. In my graffs I upped the caramel malt to 1 lb and my FG with wheat yeast has been 1.010 to .012 . Unless you are using a normal amount of priming sugar (4 oz give or take. I use 1 can of concentrate usually) you should pasteurize.

Heres my graff... Not bad

So I made a 5 gallon batch of this about 3 weeks ago. My only substitution was that I subbed the 60L for equal parts 120L and Honey Malt. I must say, the sample I took today was delicious!

It looks to have finished at 1.009. It has started to clear a bit but I'm going to add a some of gelatin to help it clear sooner. Can't wait to try this again when it is finally finished.

Guys, does it matter what kind of apple juice I use?

TheToE said:

Guys, does it matter what kind of apple juice I use?

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It does... From my experience use apple juice that has only 100% apple juice.... Stay away from apple juice that contains asorbic acid (vitamin c) it'll make the graff tart

TheToE said:

Guys, does it matter what kind of apple juice I use?

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CliffMongoloid said:

It does... From my experience use apple juice that has only 100% apple juice.... Stay away from apple juice that contains asorbic acid (vitamin c) it'll make the graff tart

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Yeah be sure to watch out for apple juice "cocktails", that contain only 15% juice or so, and are mostly flavored sugar-water. Make sure it says 100% juice, and check the ingredients to make sure the only juice listed is apple.

If it says "juice from concentrate", that is fine.

Avoid any artificial flavorings or preservatives (pretty much anything on the list of ingredients that is not "juice", "juice from concentrate", "water", or "ascorbic acid".

I've actually had good results with juice containing ascorbic acid. Not trying to contradict CliffMongoloid here, just relating my own personal experiences. It took a while for the tartness to mellow out, but that's been my experience with all ciders, do I don't know if that's attributable to the vitamin c or not (but I can see why it would be the cause).

You can always go with fresh-pressed juice or cider as well.

Followed original recipe. Had a hard time finding apple juice that didn't have A.acid. Publix Greenwise organic was the only one that didn't list A.acid. So thats what I went with. Ended up @ 1.060 OG. Pitched yeast at 67f. The hydro sample tasted good!

TheToE said:

Guys, does it matter what kind of apple juice I use?

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Ascorbic acid is ok if that's all you can find; however, as stated it can cause tartness that requires more age. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C.

The main thing to watch out for is potassium sorbate. This is used to kill off wild yeast and help preserve the juice. This will make it difficult to ferment. Since it's a yeast inhibitor, it would require a huge starter to overcome.

The only juice I will use is Kirkland brand (costco). They sells the best apple juice in my opinion.. Price is decent ($7.99 for two gallons) and it's 100% juice and that's it.

Thanks for all the info guys. It's bubbling away nicely in the ferm chamber @65f.

Well I brewed a batch last night and had a blowout this afternoon!

Yeast nutrient really superpowers yeast.

going to do this today, quick question though, are you guys using hop bags for the hops? or can i throw them in loose, cold crash and settle everything before siphoning?

loudgonzo said:

going to do this today, quick question though, are you guys using hop bags for the hops? or can i throw them in loose, cold crash and settle everything before siphoning?

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Either way will work fine. I normally use a hop bag when brewing beer, but I don't bother with Graff. I'm only using 1/2 ounce of hops in 1 gallon of wort. Given enough time it will clear up just fine.

loudgonzo said:

going to do this today, quick question though, are you guys using hop bags for the hops? or can i throw them in loose, cold crash and settle everything before siphoning?

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I just threw the hops in the wort.

loudgonzo said:

going to do this today, quick question though, are you guys using hop bags for the hops? or can i throw them in loose, cold crash and settle everything before siphoning?

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I used a hop bag since I didn't want to risk any vegetal flavors as I don't really care for them but with such a small amount of hops you should be fine with any of those methods.

Soilworker said:

I used a hop bag since I didn't want to risk any vegetal flavors as I don't really care for them but with such a small amount of hops you should be fine with any of those methods.

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Not to contradict you but i don't think there is a difference in boiling With or without a Hop bag in terms of vegetal flavors.... The only thing a hop bag will do is make it easier to pull out when the boil is over and the potential of less trub

CliffMongoloid said:

Not to contradict you but i don't think there is a difference in boiling With or without a Hop bag in terms of vegetal flavors.... The only thing a hop bag will do is make it easier to pull out when the boil is over and the potential of less trub

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I think he means by it not being in a bag, you risk it getting racked into the fermenter. And by it being in the fermenter, for extended time, it can cause the vegetable flavor. But then again, maybe not.

Question for you guys. How long did it take for your Graff to carb in bottles? I used the same amount of priming sugar that I used in my last IPA which only took a week to carbonate. However the last Graff I cracked open was sweet to the taste and barely carbonated. How long have you guys have to wait until its fully carbonated?

JhonKa said:

Question for you guys. How long did it take for your Graff to carb in bottles? I used the same amount of priming sugar that I used in my last IPA which only took a week to carbonate. However the last Graff I cracked open was sweet to the taste and barely carbonated. How long have you guys have to wait until its fully carbonated?

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Depends on several factors... One big one being the temp. If you've had it in the bottle for a few weeks at the right temps, you may have to add yeast to the bottles.

The "rule of thumb" is:
1 week primary
2 weeks secondary
3 weeks bottle

My first graff is finishing very slowly, much slower than any beer I've done. I used a half batch of WLP001 harvested from a good batch of medium gravity red ale and two teaspoons of yeast energizer. The initial fermentation started in 16 hours and was blowing off two days later. Now it has just been limping along for more than two weeks. There is still lots of yeast in a big foamy cake on top and steady bubbling in the airlock. I swirled it a few times to mix the yeast cake back in, but it just forms again. The gravity is 1.014 and it tastes tart, not sweet, and yeasty.

My goal is to get this cleared up and into a keg in the next ten days, so I racked into another carboy and put it into the serving fridge at 9C.

For the record,
4 gal. Fresh cider SG 1.052
1.5 lb. DME
4.25 oz. 40L crystal
4 oz. Special B
8 oz. maltodextrin
2 tsp. yeast energizer
0.25 16.7% AA pellets
3/16 tsp. sulfite 48 hours before brew day
I pitched at 16C and shook the carboy to aerate. Normally I use pure oxygen and a diffuser stone, but I figured that the cider hadn't been boiled, so it would already have a little oxygen in it. Plus I was using a good sized starter.

This is my first try at using maltodextrin. Maybe I used too much.

Any suggestions for getting this batch on schedule for Thanksgiving? Or for the next batch?

New member... read this entire thread, almost. have brewed beer for many years and wanted to try cider. Found this recipe and decided to give it a shot. Followed the recipe on the 1st page, using Saaz hops. For juice, I used Organic brand organic unfiltered apple juice.

Brewed last Wednesday. Fermentation started immediately, and I've had numerous blow ups. One actually shattered my airlock. It's still bubbling away like crazy, but I think i have the blow off under control. Just hoping I didn't get an infection.

I plan to go straight from the fermenter to bottle. 2-3 weeks?

Do I put sugar in the bottles.

mrdeshone said:

Do I put sugar in the bottles.

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If you want it to carbonate, yes.

Just kegged this last night. Tasted great going into the fermenter! Tasted it coming out of the fermenter and it was a little tart. ABV was 8.4%... Haven't read through the 243 pages of posts, but... anyone feel the need to back sweeten this?

I think it could stand to have a bit more hops added. We used only .5 oz. since we got our vines from a friend and have no idea what kind they are. Nice body and great flavor. On the dry side.

All in all, it was just what we were looking for (a way to brew our cider like a beer). Will definitely make this one again!!

IMNOTL8 said:

Haven't read through the 243 pages of posts, but... anyone feel the need to back sweeten this?

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If you like it sweeter, I would. I'm a big fan of a good dry cider and this was just about perfect in my opinion.

I was thinking about doing a winter spiced version, backsweetened and with some vanilla and cinnamon soaked in rum. I was talking about this here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/spiced-winter-cider-443814/

Considering my planned outcome I was thinking about not using any hops at all. Can I do that or would you recommend not to?
Also I'm planning on substituting the torrified wheat for cara-pils since I can't find enything other than regular wheat malt here. Would that work?

For what OG are you planning just the 1G Beer batch? I was thinking at about 1.090? I'm asking because I like to use just all grain. As the base I was thinking about using vienna or munich malt insted of just pale malt. What would you say? Also if you use hops, what IBUs are you looking at, just for the beer batch again? Beersmith puts me somewhere in the 40s. Does that sound right?

Sorry if my questions have been answered before, but this is one big a** thread

SvenF said:

I was thinking about not using any hops at all. Can I do that or would you recommend not to?

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You can do whatever you want. Don't add them if you don't want to.

Also I'm planning on substituting the torrified wheat for cara-pils since I can't find enything other than regular wheat malt here. Would that work?

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Tortified wheat is basically puffed wheat. In this recipe it's for head retention. It's not going to affect the flavor or ABV at all. Use flaked wheat or just leave it out.

what OG are you planning for the 1G Beer batch?

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Since you have beer smith, run the numbers. Also look back a few months, or use the search. There are all grain recipes posted.

I was thinking about using vienna or munich malt insted of just pale malt. What would you say?

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Do it... Experiment, and see how it comes out. That's what home brewing is all about, man.

Also if you use hops, what IBUs are you looking at, just for the beer batch again? Beersmith puts me somewhere in the 40s. Does that sound right?

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40 sounds way too high to me. I'd stay at or under 10 ibu personally.

Sorry if my questions have been answered before, but this is one big a** thread

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That's what the search function is for...

BurlyGirl said:

View attachment 161747

I think it could stand to have a bit more hops added. We used only .5 oz. since we got our vines from a friend and have no idea what kind they are. Nice body and great flavor. On the dry side.

All in all, it was just what we were looking for (a way to brew our cider like a beer). Will definitely make this one again!!

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I used some hops harvested from a friend as well! Mine were Nugget hops. First time using them in something. They smell great! Have to wait and see on the bitterness in the completely finished product with carbonation and a little aging on it. It's definitely not as dry as Ed Wort's Apfelwein!

Advise Please!

Tuesday I will be bottling my first cider and was in search of a different recipe which is how I came upon this. I love malty beers and a malty cider sounded good to me, so I want to make some. My cider going into bottles Tuesday was fermented with s-04 and has a nice 3/4" thick yeast cake on the bottom of my 5 gallon better bottle. If I were to make this graff could I dump it right in the better bottle after I rack off the cider to be bottled? Thanks so much for the insight.

-Mike

Ok so I have made this three times now. I used Brandon-O's recipe, I did the gunslinger version, I made my own version with a SMaSH pale ale. All have been less than good. None of mine have had off flavors its just the flavor is not there. I rather just make cider or a beer. The concept was good with this which is why I kept trying different recipes, but in the end I rather make a beer or a cider. Great idea I'm glad people like it, but IMO this stuff sucks... Like I said thats my opinion, best of luck to you that like it.

:cross::hs:nestar::rockin:

kesslerr1 said:

Ok so I have made this three times now. I used Brandon-O's recipe, I did the gunslinger version, I made my own version with a SMaSH pale ale. All have been less than good. None of mine have had off flavors its just the flavor is not there. I rather just make cider or a beer. The concept was good with this which is why I kept trying different recipes, but in the end I rather make a beer or a cider. Great idea I'm glad people like it, but IMO this stuff sucks... Like I said thats my opinion, best of luck to you that like it.

:cross::hs:nestar::rockin:

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Too bad it hasn't worked out for you. I never made the original. I just made up my own all grain recipe using MO and lots of crystal malt. I made two batches so far. The first 5 gallons went in record time. It's very apple in flavor with perfect sweetness. Not too dry, not too sweet... just right. You get the essence of beer, but you know you're drinking a cider. It has body and flavor and perfectly balanced.

My girlfriend is obsessed with this stuff (that's why the keg was tapped in record time) saying it's her favorite thing. Keep in mind, this girl drinks wine and beer. Her family is obsessed with wines. She thinks it's better than any of that stuff commercial or otherwise. My second batch is sitting in a wine cooler at 45 degrees waiting for Thanksgiving.

I have made several ciders that were good, but my AG graft beats them all by far. And--the best thing of all--they're ready in a fraction of the time.

insanim8er said:

Too bad it hasn't worked out for you. I never made the original. I just made up my own all grain recipe using MO and lots of crystal malt. I made two batches so far...I have made several ciders that were good, but my AG graft beats them all by far. And--the best thing of all--they're ready in a fraction of the time.

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Can you share your recipe and process?