Quinoa Pilsner

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mloster

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Ok. Here's what I'm planning to mash tonight and brew tomorrow. It's a 2.5 gallon batch.

~3.5 lbs malted quinoa (not roasted)
~ 1lb malted buckwheat (i may leave this out as it may be too strong for the beer)
1 lb honey
.5 lb corn sugar
.75 oz Saaz @ 60 min
.125 oz Saaz @ 15 min
.125 oz Saaz @ flameout
1 whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min (for clarity)
Saflager S-23

Even though the grains are malted, I was planning on boiling them for an hour or so, waiting till the mash water reached 158 deg, and adding amylase. I'll then wrap the pot in towels to maintain the temp as best as possible and let it sit for 24 hours. After the 24 hours, I'll sparge in another pot at 170 deg or so, denaturing the amylase enzymes. Then I'll have my (hopefully) sugary wort and brew as normal. Any suggestions or changes? Only corn sugar and no honey? More or less hops? I entered all the info into beercalculus, and it fit the classic american pilsner style.
 
Ok. Here's what I'm planning to mash tonight and brew tomorrow. It's a 2.5 gallon batch.

~3.5 lbs malted quinoa (not roasted)
~ 1lb malted buckwheat (i may leave this out as it may be too strong for the beer)
1 lb honey
.5 lb corn sugar
.75 oz Saaz @ 60 min
.125 oz Saaz @ 15 min
.125 oz Saaz @ flameout
1 whirlfloc tablet @ 15 min (for clarity)
Saflager S-23

Even though the grains are malted, I was planning on boiling them for an hour or so, waiting till the mash water reached 158 deg, and adding amylase. I'll then wrap the pot in towels to maintain the temp as best as possible and let it sit for 24 hours. After the 24 hours, I'll sparge in another pot at 170 deg or so, denaturing the amylase enzymes. Then I'll have my (hopefully) sugary wort and brew as normal. Any suggestions or changes? Only corn sugar and no honey? More or less hops? I entered all the info into beercalculus, and it fit the classic american pilsner style.

I wouldn't boil the malt.... it's malted for a reason. There are enzymes aside from alpha amylase that work in a mash to get a proper wort. Boiling will denature all of them.

You'll probably also want to increase the malt and decrease the simple sugars (i.e. honey and corn sugar.) Half the grain bill will make it terribly dry and probably add some weird flavors.

Also, why the 24 hour mash?
 
Quinoa. That grain is pretty flavorless. What kind of flavor you expecting from this batch?
 
Actually, the quinoa smells very nutty. I think it should impart a grain-y like taste. Maybe I won't boil the mash. In the current recipe, the grain bill 75% quinoa and buckwheat and 25% simple sugars. The main reason I was contemplating a 24 hour mash was to achieve the most conversion of the grains (sort of like a chestnut beer).
 
mloster said:
Actually, the quinoa smells very nutty. I think it should impart a grain-y like taste. Maybe I won't boil the mash. In the current recipe, the grain bill 75% quinoa and buckwheat and 25% simple sugars. The main reason I was contemplating a 24 hour mash was to achieve the most conversion of the grains (sort of like a chestnut beer).

I have quinoa weekly and load it with peppers, onions, garlic and spices. I think its there only for the texture. Or my palate is busted. Well good luck. Should atleast be a refreshing brew.
 
Hmm. Alright, I may try light roasting the quinoa and wafting it for a week. I want to get the beer started though. Maybe I'll try brewing this tonight and then try an identical recipe with light roasted quinoa to compare. So many options.
 
mloster said:
Hmm. Alright, I may try light roasting the quinoa and wafting it for a week. I want to get the beer started though. Maybe I'll try brewing this tonight and then try an identical recipe with light roasted quinoa to compare. So many options.

Experimenting is part of the fun. Nothing to lose.
 
Other than the blanket, how were you planning to keep the temp constant; leaving it on a hot-plate? You might wanna consider an 8 or 12hr mash instead, it might be easier to monitor the temperature...
 
Actually, the quinoa smells very nutty. I think it should impart a grain-y like taste. Maybe I won't boil the mash. In the current recipe, the grain bill 75% quinoa and buckwheat and 25% simple sugars. The main reason I was contemplating a 24 hour mash was to achieve the most conversion of the grains (sort of like a chestnut beer).

That sounds like a good idea. But I still don't think you need such a long mash. If you crush the grain, once you dough-in (when you mix strike water and grains together) the enzymes will be able to disperse and get the job done in an hour.

I hope someone with more GF brewing experience could chime in, but does that sound right? I'm pretty sure GF mashes don't need to go any longer than a regular mash.

What you can do instead is mash for an hour and do an iodine starch test. Take a drop of your mash and put it in a white plate. Then drop a bit of iodophor or iodine in there and if it stays brown you have full conversion. If it turns black or purple, you still have starch and it needs to continue mashing.
 
Something that may help is decantation mashing. I think it is similar to cereal mashing but you use all of the grist. Bring your mash up to 113 ish degrees and remove the liquid. Boil the grist to gelatinize the grains, add back to your liquid that contains all your enzymes. This lets the grains be gelatinize but still use their own amylase to mash. I don't know at what temperature quinoa gelatinizes at but this might help anyway.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032959200002673#secx7

This is the article that I read that describes the process. I don't know if you can see it or not, you might have to buy it. I am still in school so my campus allows free access to stuff like this. Hooray private engineering school.
 
Yeah its a pay-article - are you sure the amylase will stick to the water, and remain there instead of remaining attached to the grain? I guess crushing will help. You could add extra amylase just in-case there are any losses, it'll all get killed at the end of the mash anyway. And I second the idea of just doing the mash for an hour or maybe a bit longer, if doing these things first (crushing and/or gelatinizing).
Now I wanna try this...
 
I'm think as long as you crack the grain and let it sit for like half an hour at 120 ish you will have enzymes in the liquid. Adding extra enzyme, or at least having it on hand seems like a solid idea though. Once the millet I have malting finishes I'll give it a shot but it is a different grain so it'll be a little different. Good luck when you try this.
 
are you sure the amylase will stick to the water, and remain there instead of remaining attached to the grain?
Yes. People have been brewing for thousands of years so there's enough evidence of it working out there ;)

I guess crushing will help.
You can't really do a mash without crushing the grain.... or you'd have terrible efficiency.

You could add extra amylase just in-case there are any losses, it'll all get killed at the end of the mash anyway
Adding alpha amylase when there is already plenty present is going to make the beer reeeaaally dry. Quinoa is already a bit lacking in flavor... you get that beer dry and there's going to be zero flavor left.

I'm think as long as you crack the grain and let it sit for like half an hour at 120 ish you will have enzymes in the liquid.
Um.... sitting at 120 will only allow beta-glucanase enzymes to work. In order to get complete conversion, you need to mash between 148*F and 158*F. These are the temperatures that alpha-amylase and beta-amylase work well in conjuction.



Read Palmer's How to Brew. It seems like you guys are still really new to all-grain and unsure of the processes.
 
I know the amylase enzymes won't be active until 148-158. I had just finished reading the article that I posted earlier and was just kind of thinking out loud.
 
You let it soak at that temperature to extract the enzymes, they might not be active but they'll be in the liquid. Then you drain some of the liquid, containing the enzymes, boil the grain to gelatinize it, then return it to the liquid raising it up to 148-158 to actually convert everything. I'll check again when I get back home to see if that is what they had.
 
Again, I'm pretty sure that malted quinoa will act like all other malted grains... the starches will gelatinize at mash temperatures.
 
Probably malted it themselves.

You're probably right about not needed to boil the grains themselves, someone a while back did a quinoa pale ale and they just mashed at 150. I only brought it up because from what I've read it can increase the amount of fermentable sugars you can get from the grains, but I've really only read papers about it on millet and sorghum so I don't know if it would help with quinoa.
 
Sorry, I am new to brewing... I'm reading some books right now - I wish someone would write a book for GF brewing.

blacklab: check out the first sticky in the forum category... probably have to malt your own
 
Probably malted it themselves.

You're probably right about not needed to boil the grains themselves, someone a while back did a quinoa pale ale and they just mashed at 150. I only brought it up because from what I've read it can increase the amount of fermentable sugars you can get from the grains, but I've really only read papers about it on millet and sorghum so I don't know if it would help with quinoa.

See, here's the thing. Boiling grains such as rice, corn, wheat, rye, sorghum, millet, quinoa, etc., etc., is only necessary if they haven't been modified or gelatinized already. Torrified, flaked, rolled, etc., grains are already gelatinized from the torrification/flaking/rolling (i.e. the heat from the process gelatinizes the starch.) Also, malted grains are modified and the malting process makes it so the starches are gelatinized at mash temperatures.

Sorry, I hate the internet sometimes since it's often difficult to imply inflection. I'm sorry if at any point I've come-off as rude or snooty but I'm honestly just trying to help you make the best product possible.
 
I didn't think you came off as snooty, sorry if I came off that way. Been a weird day.

I know that malting will alter it so that you don't have to boil the grains, I've read that both ways work.
 
Again, I'm pretty sure that malted quinoa will act like all other malted grains... the starches will gelatinize at mash temperatures.

I know millet gelitinizes at a temp higher than the enzymes can handle. I believe quinoa has the same problem. Don't listen to this guy. He means well, but he is giving you wrong info. What works for barley doesn't work for GF grains.

Stick with the plan to siphon off the liquid and enzymes, boil the grains and add the enzyme liquid back in after it cools.
 
I know millet gelitinizes at a temp higher than the enzymes can handle. I believe quinoa has the same problem. Don't listen to this guy. He means well, but he is giving you wrong info. What works for barley doesn't work for GF grains.

Found some primary sources that say quinoa starches gelatinize at a lower temperature than other grains.

Source: Starch: Basic Science to Biotechnology

Quinoa starch, being high in amylopectin, gelatinizes at a low temperature, comparable with the temperate cereals wheat and barley, and rather lower than the tropical cereals such as maize and sorghum (Hoseney, 1994.) Gelatinization temperature ranges of 57-64 C (Atwell et al., 1983) and 60-70 C (Qian and Kuhn, 1999a) have been reported. This suggests that an adjusted mashing procedure would not be required to extract quinoa malt.

With regard to the use of quinoa as a brewing ingredient, Kreisz et al. (2005) performed malt analysis on optimally malted quinoa and found a slightly higher extract than barley malt.


As a biology student, looking up journals and papers that defend my statements is second nature to me. :D
 
Hmmm... it does look like quinoa's gelatination temp is within within range (unlike millet). Thanks for citing the the sorce
 
BBBF said:
Hmmm... it does look like quinoa's gelatination temp is within within range (unlike millet). Thanks for citing the the sorce

In theory, there's no difference between practice and theory. In practice, mashing home-malted quinoa at normal mash temps gives me a gelatinous goo.

I believe people are having success with the stuff somehow. From my goo about 30% clears - roughly the portion that im roasting (i leave the rest as base malt). Any chance this roasting gets me above the actual gelatinization temp? Boiling doesn't even seem to do it. All natural enzymes may be lost but amylase is cheap enough. Also I'm not too sure amylase is destroyed at boiling temps. I've seen industrial amylase has a recommended range to 225F. Could be different for the natural stuff of course.
 
Here's a pic. Please help.

ForumRunner_20110813_105816.jpg
 
ok. so i attempted to brew this beer, but i ended up burning a hole in my grain bag since i wasn't paying enough attention. i'm going to attempt this again soon, so i'll keep everyone updated
 
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