Are the All Stainless Elements Worth It?

CornyKegs 728
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cjgenever said:
Por-15 is used in motorcycle gas tanks after removing rust to prevent further rusting (often unsuccessfully). I'm not putting that in my brew system.

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I use this stuff to undercoat cars Ive restored and its nasty stuff... it says right on the can that contents are harmful or fatal if swallowed... and the solvents can cause brain damage...( most of the solvents are expelled through curing process). still not something I would use to coat anything that comes in contact with food or beverage... especially at 212 degrees :drunk:
 
I've read on here somewhere and seen pictures of soaking the elements in Star San for 30 mins to remove the coating. Does this really help?
 
Scut_Monkey said:
Which type of element and coating do you mean?
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I'm probably :off: but I found the thread so it might be best if I post and ask there. I was just curious if it was really beneficial to remove the zinc coating on the element so it's bare copper. Might be less rusting but the main rust issue seems to come from the threads anyways...

The thread itself talks about using citric acid to strip the zinc off the element.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/removing-zinc-plating-water-heater-element-163304/
 
Zinc doesn't rust.
It's a nasty metal that will slowly dissolve in acidic solutions (beer).
It's also the coating on most element bases, so while it might be good to remove it from the element, removing it from the base leaves raw steel, which will rust, thus the topic of this entire thread.
FYI, when the packaging says "stainless", it doesn't necessarily mean stainless steel. It usually means incoloy or nickel coated copper, and refers only to the element and not the base (unless it specifically says so).
There are ss element / ss base combos out there, but the info on them is slim, and unless you're holding one in your hand... with a magnet to check, you probably will never know.
 
crazyirishman34 said:
You can use the same wire for 5500w and 6000w elements. 240v X 30A = 7200w. A 95% load would be 6800w give or take.
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yes you completely right...I was thinking about my 4500w elements which only draw 18 amps... I used 10 guage anyway incase I ended up with a 5500 watt element at some point but theres really no need. plus I'd have to upgrade my 25a ssr since I have a 40a and 25a one in my panel currently.
 
Scut_Monkey said:
I have never seen a brass element base before, interesting. It's kind of strange that the eBay seller just asks you to tell them what wattage you want after you purchase. What if they don't have what you want? Pretty good price though. Unfortunately the big detractor is although it won't rust you can't use pbw/oxiclean with brass which is what I and many others use for brewsystems. Also, his listing says its 1.25" threads and not 1". What's up with that?

I'm waiting for my regular 5500w camcorder ripple element to arrive. I plan to coat it with silicone and if it rusts use it as a backup element.
Click to expand...

Why can't you use pbw/oxyclean with brass? I've found nothing that states this is a problem. Can you point me to your source?

I would imagine if it was a problem, Palmer would have mentioned it: http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixB.html
 
And my interest in this thread is due to my camco 5500 straight element rusting. From my experience, magnesium anodes prevent rusting when the kettle is full of water. What they don't protect is against rust when the kettle has just been drained. I ended up getting rust on my element threads due to the water drops that remained in contact with the base (the water was no longer electrically connecting the element base with the anode).

Also, during my leak tests with the anode installed I could see many small bubbles coming directly from the anode. Once I drained the kettle, I found a film/deposit on the kettle wall near the anode. What are the bubbles, what is the film? Throw in the fact that I still got rust on my element face the next day and you can see why I threw out the anode.

Once I took the anode out, I did another leak test (overnight) to find the element face had rusted further while submerged (this did not happen with the anode--the bubbles and resulting film are evidence that the anode was protecting the element when the kettle was full).

I could go the silicone route to try and prevent rusting, but I don't want that in my beer either!


Ultimately, I cleaned the rust off and will be brewing a batch tonight. I will not be leaving my kettle full of water anymore (only did it during the leak check) and I will dry the element threads when I'm done brewing. I've read that most people have issues with rusting in their hlt (I'm doing BIAB-ish setup) so hopefully I won't have the environment that leads to rusting.

I looked into bremations element but none of their products will work for me (I can't use a ripple element due to how I mount my element) so if I have any more rusting issues I will probably purchase this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electrical-...678?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a30ecff66

I only wish it came in higher wattages but 4000w will be fine for even a 10gal batch. But why not have more power? It just makes the water heat up quicker hence why I went with my 5500 ULWD element even with the fact I will mostly be doing 5 gallon batches. Also the element linked above looks to have more length than the element acidrain purchased...not sure if it is a LWD but it might be close.
 
renthispace said:
Why can't you use pbw/oxyclean with brass? I've found nothing that states this is a problem. Can you point me to your source?

I would imagine if it was a problem, Palmer would have mentioned it: http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixB.html
Click to expand...

Sorry, I must not have been thinking clearly when I posted that. I guess I was thinking of copper + PBW/Oxiclean = Bad. Yeah brass should be fine and I have a couple pieces of it on my brewstand that get oxiclean contact with no probs.
 
Well I finally got my new camco ripple element in last night. It was a big pain trying to get silicone chaulk onto the face of the element with the herms coils in the way. But it's done. Hopefully the rust stays away. I'll try to post a pic if I can get one with the limited visibility.

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kenh said:
So how does polishing help?
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if you polish 430 grade stainless its theres less pitting and hiding places for contaminants that hold moisture and lead to rusting.... 430 stainless is NOT rustproof... it has way more regular steel than most grades of stainless... the finish is what makes it more rust resistant... the link I quoted explains it better...
 
acidrain said:
Brewmation elements have SS bases... that's why they're shiny.
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how do you know they are shiny? have you seen one? are are you just stating a theory here?
The more likely scenerio is regular camco ripple elements are made of 430 stainless. 430 stainless is magnetic and does rust.
Brewmation already claims the ones they sell are 430 grade stainless...I doubt the ripple element they carry is a hot tub element like their straight ones.(which are stainless and cheap if you buy elsewhere BTW).. and I really doubt they have paid to have it specially manufactuered of stainless... But they could be polishing them which makes them much less resistant to rust forming on them.
 
augiedoggy said:
how do you know they are shiny? have you seen one? are are you just stating a theory here?
The more likely scenerio is regular camco ripple elements are made of 430 stainless. 430 stainless is magnetic and does rust.
Brewmation already claims the ones they sell are 430 grade stainless...I doubt the ripple element they carry is a hot tub element like their straight ones.(which are stainless and cheap if you buy elsewhere BTW).. and I really doubt they have paid to have it specially manufactuered of stainless... But they could be polishing them which makes them much less resistant to rust forming on them.
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How do you know? Are you just stating theory here? Man you sound sophisticated.
Are you suggesting that you can buy any element labeled "stainless", and polish the base and make it rust free?
 
Maybe you're talking about this element (specifically mentioned in Kal's site)?http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Look at the first "Most recent customer reviews": down the page on the right. They rust because the bases are steel.
The brewmation website says their elements are 430 stainless and the bases are 316.
We are specifically talking bases here. Where are you getting your info?
 
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acidrain said:
Maybe you're talking about this element (specifically mentioned in Kal's site)?http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BPG4LI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Look at the first "Most recent customer reviews": down the page on the right. They rust because the bases are steel.
The brewmation website says their elements are 430 stainless and the bases are 316.
We are specifically talking bases here. Where are you getting your info?
Click to expand...

I think the ripple element brew motion sells is actually 430 stainless and not 316 (at the base) . It is their more powerful elements that are 316.
I think the whole polishing idea is just speculation but I would need to be convinced and right now I'm not. I just can't see why camco would build these with more expensive materials like 430 stainless and then not make that information known. Also, if they truly are 430 stainless why spend the extra money to manufacture that way when they end up rusting in a tank of water anyway, which is their real intended use?

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Last edited by a moderator:
Ah, yeah I see that... missed it the first time around.
The specs for most of the elements out there just are not available, and it's not like you can go to your nearest element supplier (beside HD or Lowes) to physically look at it.
I'm really happy with the brass base/Incoloy element... I really think it's the way to go.
 
Here's the info I got from Brewmation:

"The base is the 400 series stainless. When the machining is done on the base and the elements are 'staked' it causes the discoloration of the stainless. It is not copper nor is the base plated.

They use the 400 series because of its ability to machine and stake. It is much better than the mild steel found on all other elements due to its corrosion resistance."

It is a highly unlikely scenario that CAMCO's use 430 stainless bases that are zinc plated.

To be fair 430 stainless is not exactly an "expensive" material, but the BrewMation elements are definitely not polished either.

No stainless steel is rustproof. 304 stainless, the material your boil kettle is made from, is only slightly more corrosion resistant than 430.

From azom.com:
"430 has good resistance to a wide variety of corrosive media including nitric acid and some organic acids. It attains its maximum corrosion resistance when in the highly polished or buffed condition. In general its resistance to pitting and crevice corrosion resistance is close to that of grade 304. Stress corrosion cracking resistance of Grade 430 is very high, as it is for all ferritic grades."
 
orangehero said:
Here's the info I got from Brewmation:

"The base is the 400 series stainless. When the machining is done on the base and the elements are 'staked' it causes the discoloration of the stainless. It is not copper nor is the base plated.

They use the 400 series because of its ability to machine and stake. It is much better than the mild steel found on all other elements due to its corrosion resistance."

It is a highly unlikely scenario that CAMCO's use 430 stainless bases that are zinc plated.

To be fair 430 stainless is not exactly an "expensive" material, but the BrewMation elements are definitely not polished either.

No stainless steel is rustproof. 304 stainless, the material your boil kettle is made from, is only slightly more corrosion resistant than 430.

From azom.com:
"430 has good resistance to a wide variety of corrosive media including nitric acid and some organic acids. It attains its maximum corrosion resistance when in the highly polished or buffed condition. In general its resistance to pitting and crevice corrosion resistance is close to that of grade 304. Stress corrosion cracking resistance of Grade 430 is very high, as it is for all ferritic grades."
Click to expand...
Yes this is just a theory I have but since theres no real evidence either way as to what is and isnt?
Yes the polished finish makes the kettles more rust resistant...
I do not have camco branded elements so I cant comment on the zinc plating. However I believe my ace hardware elements may have come from the same plant... after looking at camcos website it appears they may just a marketing distributor...and the huge array of products are made by other various companies that they aquire or under license by third party manufacturers...

In any case if they are different I still believe someone could track down their true intended market and by them elsewhere for the normal $20-30 like the other elements they sell which appear to be hot tub /spa elements.
Maybe Im wrong and the element manufacturer was willing to toolup and make a limited run of these for a drop in the bucket market and even smaller website distributor but I really have my doubts on this. perhaps in some market or country they require it over rust in thier water supply? medical supply market of some sort?

430 stainless is more likely to rust than 304 or 316 stainless for the same reason its much more magnetic. It made up of more steel which also makes it stronger.
 
APCOM is the company that makes the "ripple" elements and they probably manufacture elements with stainless steel screw plugs for industrial use.

I don't know about CAMCO specifically, but most hot water heater elements have zinc plated cold rolled steel screw plugs.
 
Hey renthispace,
Did you ever buy the stainless / brass base element from ebay. I have found the same thing in my search for a "rust proof" and just curious what your experience was if you have used that element. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Brian

renthispace said:
And my interest in this thread is due to my camco 5500 straight element rusting. From my experience, magnesium anodes prevent rusting when the kettle is full of water. What they don't protect is against rust when the kettle has just been drained. I ended up getting rust on my element threads due to the water drops that remained in contact with the base (the water was no longer electrically connecting the element base with the anode).

Also, during my leak tests with the anode installed I could see many small bubbles coming directly from the anode. Once I drained the kettle, I found a film/deposit on the kettle wall near the anode. What are the bubbles, what is the film? Throw in the fact that I still got rust on my element face the next day and you can see why I threw out the anode.

Once I took the anode out, I did another leak test (overnight) to find the element face had rusted further while submerged (this did not happen with the anode--the bubbles and resulting film are evidence that the anode was protecting the element when the kettle was full).

I could go the silicone route to try and prevent rusting, but I don't want that in my beer either!


Ultimately, I cleaned the rust off and will be brewing a batch tonight. I will not be leaving my kettle full of water anymore (only did it during the leak check) and I will dry the element threads when I'm done brewing. I've read that most people have issues with rusting in their hlt (I'm doing BIAB-ish setup) so hopefully I won't have the environment that leads to rusting.

I looked into bremations element but none of their products will work for me (I can't use a ripple element due to how I mount my element) so if I have any more rusting issues I will probably purchase this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electrical-...678?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a30ecff66

I only wish it came in higher wattages but 4000w will be fine for even a 10gal batch. But why not have more power? It just makes the water heat up quicker hence why I went with my 5500 ULWD element even with the fact I will mostly be doing 5 gallon batches. Also the element linked above looks to have more length than the element acidrain purchased...not sure if it is a LWD but it might be close.
Click to expand...
 
I'm the one that originally posted the brass base find on ebay. They work great!
 
What's the wattage density like on those? Is it more for hlt or good for kettle?
 
The bad thing is I assume they are not LWD because they are kind of small for the wattage... They don't say, so assume standard density.
 
For my scenario I couldn't justify the cost of the stainless elements. I went with a regular Camco 5500w element and used silicone chaulking on it to seal the face. I tried to be very diligent with it. It seems to be holding well as of now. In the end I figured if this idea failed at least I would have a spare element I could use if I indeed have to buy a more expensive element some day and it craps out mid brew session. Regardless, I make sure to never leave water sitting in my HLT overnight as I think this is how most people get into trouble.
 

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