Going electric, where to start

So in another thread, I talked about basement e-brewery setup issues with ventilation. My basement is a bit unusual, but I have a solution. Now that I have that part solved, I realize that there are much more options for electric brewing now, and I have no idea, what the pros and cons of each might be. I've looked at a variety of sites, and HBT threads and still cannot find a concise overview of what way to go.

Pretty sure I'm going to put my vessels on a SS prep table beneath my hood against a wall with a SS backsplash and have pumps mounted on shelf of prep table. Pretty sure I want herms so I don't need to clean a rims tube or worry about powering the rims or mounting it. Pretty sure I want to move up to 20 gallon vessels to brew ten gallons without risking boilover. I've been using a Brutus style system with 15 gallon blichman kettles. Retrofitting the Blichmann stuff is an option, but I wouldn't be able to do 10 gallon batches. Also it's not the kettles that represent the majority of the cost for building an electric system. Pretty sure I would still want to brew 5 gallon batches from time to time, and not just ten gallons.

What I am unsure about is if I want ability for CIP. Of course, I'll need to scoop out the mash tun, so there is still going to be a need to deal with that. I unsure about if I would want ability to run two elements at once, or just a single element, and why it might be nice to be able to run two elements. The biggest thing I'm struggling with is that I am unsure if I would want to buy vs build myself a control panel, and if that panel should use BCS, or PID. Certainly the ability to automate the heating of the HLT in a prepped and prefilled HLT so that when I stroll downstairs with my coffee in the morning, it's ready to go. Other automations seem unnecessary, but in time, I could very well feel differently. Alternately, an off the shelf set of products like Blichmann has could be another way to go, as could buying induction. Finally, I'm unsure of going with BIAB as opposed to my intended HERMS which I admit I know little to nothing about the whole BIAB, but sounds messy.

I'd be interested to hear from others who've been down this path, how they addressed each issue on their own. I've started reading the book from Kal's site. It is informative, but if don't think it really touches on all these issues directly.

Choosing the specific kettles, elements and whatnot seems to be secondary to the rest of the plan.

Thanks

TD


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

Definitely consider a bottom drain option, especially if you're using kegs. I just built an electric, single tier, two pump, one PID, two 5500 elements and went with bottom drains. The bottom drain, if set up appropriately, will eliminate the scooping, etc., and better CIP. Check out Bobby M's online shop for the bottom drain stuff.

TC

I was just posting this in another thread...but I strongly reccomend building the panel yourself. I saved a lot of money and learned a ton of new skills, and the satisfaction of completing something of that scale is great
I did a Kal clone panel myself with 3x PID. I purchased all the components myself but purchased the wiring kit from Kal and the DIY temp probe kit. Wiring kit was definitely a good idea. I haven't touched any automation stuff, but my plan is to come down in the morning, turn on my HLT, and then go get my coffee

I have always used 15g vessels to brew 10g batches in (keggles). In the begininng, before Fermcap, the occassional boil over would occur and it would make a huge mess as it poured into my propane burner. Then I discovered Fermcap, and have never had a problem with boil overs again. If you want to do some really big beers, a 20g mash tun may be a good idea, but personally I don't tend to brew above 8-9% very often.

I don't have any input on CIP, other than that with pumps and some good cleaning solution you should be able to get everything.

2 elements are only really required for back to back brewing. But, if you go that route you'll have to step everything up to 50A, which will cost more. What advice Kal has given me for my 15G setup is to fill both the MLT and HLT at once, heat both vessels to mash temp by recirculating, mash in, and then simply maintain the HLT temp until you're ready to mash out and sparge.

I don't know a lot about BIAB, but my build is going to include a Jaybird false bottom with a level 2 filter stand for the MLT and a level 3 for the BK. I want complete peace of mind with my setup, and NorCal makes some good false bottoms.

The SS table sounds like a good idea. If I can find one local for cheap, that's my plan, and then I may end up renting a plasma cutter to "modify" it I'm going with 3 inverted keggles, so I would need a few holes.

Cioffi said:

Definitely consider a bottom drain option, especially if you're using kegs. I just built an electric, single tier, two pump, one PID, two 5500 elements and went with bottom drains. The bottom drain, if set up appropriately, will eliminate the scooping, etc., and better CIP. Check out Bobby M's online shop for the bottom drain stuff.

TC

Click to expand...

What's your method for cleaning out the mash tun? I'm going to be doing exactly this.

Cioffi said:

Definitely consider a bottom drain option, especially if you're using kegs. I just built an electric, single tier, two pump, one PID, two 5500 elements and went with bottom drains. The bottom drain, if set up appropriately, will eliminate the scooping, etc., and better CIP. Check out Bobby M's online shop for the bottom drain stuff.

TC

Click to expand...

Thanks for suggestion. Do you have a link ?

TD

Brettomomyces said:

I was just posting this in another thread...but I strongly reccomend building the panel yourself. I saved a lot of money and learned a ton of new skills, and the satisfaction of completing something of that scale is great
I did a Kal clone panel myself with 3x PID. I purchased all the components myself but purchased the wiring kit from Kal and the DIY temp probe kit. Wiring kit was definitely a good idea. I haven't touched any automation stuff, but my plan is to come down in the morning, turn on my HLT, and then go get my coffee

I have always used 15g vessels to brew 10g batches in (keggles). In the begininng, before Fermcap, the occassional boil over would occur and it would make a huge mess as it poured into my propane burner. Then I discovered Fermcap, and have never had a problem with boil overs again. If you want to do some really big beers, a 20g mash tun may be a good idea, but personally I don't tend to brew above 8-9% very often.

I don't have any input on CIP, other than that with pumps and some good cleaning solution you should be able to get everything.

2 elements are only really required for back to back brewing. But, if you go that route you'll have to step everything up to 50A, which will cost more. What advice Kal has given me for my 15G setup is to fill both the MLT and HLT at once, heat both vessels to mash temp by recirculating, mash in, and then simply maintain the HLT temp until you're ready to mash out and sparge.

I don't know a lot about BIAB, but my build is going to include a Jaybird false bottom with a level 2 filter stand for the MLT and a level 3 for the BK. I want complete peace of mind with my setup, and NorCal makes some good false bottoms.

The SS table sounds like a good idea. If I can find one local for cheap, that's my plan, and then I may end up renting a plasma cutter to "modify" it I'm going with 3 inverted keggles, so I would need a few holes.

Click to expand...

Good advice here as well. Kal states he buys in bulk and passes saving along. Did you find this to be the case or did you pay more buying parts on your own? I like the idea of automation, but the BCS interface is a bit peculiar, and not sure what the major benefit is other than remote starting or programming the HLT to fire up. Maybe I need a coffee pot in the basement!!

As far as boil intensity and 10 gallon batches in a 15 gallon pot, I do notice that there is a significant difference in bitterness (or lack thereof) when boiling at the necessary intensity. Maybe I could just use more bittering hops, should've thought of that sooner... I have also noticed in brewing with pils that the corny aroma doesn't drive off easily, and finally, that doing 90 minutes boils is t possible without boilover or else adding top off water later. I have been doing it for a few years, and when I crank the burners, I will flirt with small boilovers even with fermcap. Keeping them and scaling back to 5 or even 7.5 gallon batches might be the way to go to cut costs on new kettles, and could use the boil coils. Would still need to install a herms coil though in the HLT. Not sure how big a PITA that'll be.

I prefer the flat bottom kettles myself. I will look into those false bottoms you mention though.

Thanks again for the advice. Looked through the ebrewsupply and the electricbrewery sites fairly well. Both seem like great products.

TD

The wiring kit and temp probes were no brainers to get from Kal, especially for the quality of the temp probes. In an ideal world, where I live under a money tree, I would have jumped at Kal's kit. I can't say that my panel is just as good as Kal's, cause I did purchase some cheaper componenets. My receptacles aren't the same quality, as well as a few other parts. I went with the cheaper basic heat sinks for my SSRs, and omitted the amp/volt meter. With my cutbacks, I was able to bring the panel under my budget, but it did require a lot more legwork on my part to make sure I had everything correct and that everything is rated for the correct amperage/voltage. Kal's kit, no guess-work involved.

Brettomomyces said:

The wiring kit and temp probes were no brainers to get from Kal, especially for the quality of the temp probes. In an ideal world, where I live under a money tree, I would have jumped at Kal's kit. I can't say that my panel is just as good as Kal's, cause I did purchase some cheaper componenets. My receptacles aren't the same quality, as well as a few other parts. I went with the cheaper basic heat sinks for my SSRs, and omitted the amp/volt meter. With my cutbacks, I was able to bring the panel under my budget, but it did require a lot more legwork on my part to make sure I had everything correct and that everything is rated for the correct amperage/voltage. Kal's kit, no guess-work involved.

Click to expand...

Yes Kal's kit is expensive. Wish I could choke up the cash for the full assembled 50A panel, but not likely to happen.

TD

I have a PID system with the level of automation that allows me to have hot strike water when i intend to brew. I use the relay on my timer in order to engage my contactor for my HLT. This allows me to set the timer to go off for approximatly 30-45 minutes prior to when i plan to brew. I also use all bottom drain vesels on a stand I made. I do not currently clean in place but like the ability if i decide to in the future.

Brettomomyces said:

What's your method for cleaning out the mash tun? I'm going to be doing exactly this.

Click to expand...

Depending on how much grain I use, I have two ways to clean the MT. First, if the grain bill isn't too big, I simply untighten the sanitary clamp (the hardware is sold by Bobby M) and pop off a elbow, 8" pipe, and ball valve and let all the grain drop through the opening. Then just wash out the MT and catch everything in a bucket. Second, if the grain bill is pretty big, I scoop out some of the mash and then proceed as mentioned above. It's very easy. And if you go with a bottom drain on your BK, you can drain out every bit of wort. I have bottom drains on all my keggles.

TC

Cioffi said:

Depending on how much grain I use, I have two ways to clean the MT. First, if the grain bill isn't too big, I simply untighten the sanitary clamp (the hardware is sold by Bobby M) and pop off a elbow, 8" pipe, and ball valve and let all the grain drop through the opening. Then just wash out the MT and catch everything in a bucket. Second, if the grain bill is pretty big, I scoop out some of the mash and then proceed as mentioned above. It's very easy. And if you go with a bottom drain on your BK, you can drain out every bit of wort. I have bottom drains on all my keggles.

TC

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I am curious how you bypass the false bottom when allowing the grain through the bottom port? I could see it working if the false bottom has a handle and it is visible to just pull it up. I just use the scoop into a bucket method.

Bottom drain idea sounds good. however, I don't think I will end up going that route.
If I decide to stick with Blichman kettles and just brew 5 gallon or 7.5 gallon batches, then I will not be able to use bottom drain.
If I decide to go to lager 20 gallon vessels, I think I would still be going with a flat bottom, certainly not keggles because that's still 15 gallons. The Stout brand kettles look nice, but I am turned off by the leaky welds problem, even though it is limited. I am really liking the bru-gear stuff, but its so new, that I haven't heard any feedback on them. Scooping the grain out isnt' usually a big problem as far as making a mess if one is careful. You'd never be able to achieve CIP without a bottom drain however, as there isn't a feasible way to drain every last husk on my MLT or most.
Thanks very much for sharing this idea. Its one I hadn't heard of before.
Can I ask about the boil kettle? Is that bottom drain also? Are you racking with a cane from up top, or just transferring the break and trub into your fermenters? I am not overly worried about the trub getting in. With conicals I can always let it settle and then dump it. I suppose you may be doing the same.
TD

Here are some pictures of my 25 gallon concord boil kettle. I whirlpool in order to concentrate the trub/break/hop material in the center of the kettle. I added the bottom drain to the edge in order to not pull from the center area where the material settles.

Nice setup you have there. Got a link for those kettles??

So, I think my 2015 project is going electric.

First step is to get the hood installed.
Next step is really combined with step one, run electric. I have a pre-built conduit with pull wire to a breaker box, but one electrician said he would opt to just put in a sub panel, then I could do whatever. Not sure if that is necessarily true. At any rate, I figure 50amp 220 volt should cover the brewery and the hood, but why not go to 60 to give a little safety margin. I'm sure there are electrical codes to be obeyed and what not. Pulling a 8 ga wire through conduit may not be easy either.

Next thought, is the control panel. Though I really really like the look of Kal's design, I think I would like the ability to remote control or otherwise program at least the preheating of the HLT. That way I could fill night before, and controller would begin heating before I'm awake, and would be heated to strike temp when I am dressed and ready to brew. Seems that would require a BCS run panel. Not sure I'd want to automate much else.

The whole layout of kettles, and what-not is still up in the air.

TD

So I have the electric service run, but I think the electrician forgot to use a GCFI breaker. He's going to be back to finish some other projects though.

Have some room cleared out for the hood to go in. Hopefully in the first couple weeks of July, the hood can go in.

After that, I have a pending quote for the new e kettles and 95% of the new gear I'll need (not going to cannibalize from the propane setup).

Next decision is the control panel. I have a TV in the basement and could easily hook up a BCS or a hose head panel. Not sure what the best direction here is.

I like the idea of BCS for automation, but unsure if there is a hiccup in brew day or momentary power outage how I would recover.
Really the only automation I'd want is to fill my HLT and start to heat it such that while I'm still sleeping, I know that my strike water is going to be at the ready when I am ready to go, without wasting time for the water to heat, etc.

Otherwise, I like the simplicity of the PID panels. The one Kal sells is significantly more than the others, though does have a nifty timer, some side bars, and an amp-meter. I'm not sure that justifies an additional 1000 bucks. There might be other differences and I'm not detracting from his product whatsoever, but I'm considering what options there are besides PID vs BCS. I saw the hose head controller, but I am not so sure about that one.

Thoughts??

TD

TrickyDick said:

So I have the electric service run, but I think the electrician forgot to use a GCFI breaker. He's going to be back to finish some other projects though.

Have some room cleared out for the hood to go in. Hopefully in the first couple weeks of July, the hood can go in.

After that, I have a pending quote for the new e kettles and 95% of the new gear I'll need (not going to cannibalize from the propane setup).

Next decision is the control panel. I have a TV in the basement and could easily hook up a BCS or a hose head panel. Not sure what the best direction here is.

I like the idea of BCS for automation, but unsure if there is a hiccup in brew day or momentary power outage how I would recover.
Really the only automation I'd want is to fill my HLT and start to heat it such that while I'm still sleeping, I know that my strike water is going to be at the ready when I am ready to go, without wasting time for the water to heat, etc.

Otherwise, I like the simplicity of the PID panels. The one Kal sells is significantly more than the others, though does have a nifty timer, some side bars, and an amp-meter. I'm not sure that justifies an additional 1000 bucks. There might be other differences and I'm not detracting from his product whatsoever, but I'm considering what options there are besides PID vs BCS. I saw the hose head controller, but I am not so sure about that one.

Thoughts??

TD

Click to expand...

Um havent you seen my build thread? I thought you did.... You can build a kal clone easily for less than $300 for the control panel ...
Theres no practical reason to spend that much if you dont want to...

I do like the hosehead 2 though

augiedoggy said:

Um havent you seen my build thread? I thought you did.... You can build a kal clone easily for less than $300 for the control panel ...
Theres no practical reason to spend that much if you dont want to...

I do like the hosehead 2 though

Click to expand...

I need to look into the elsinore strangebrew project and see about that.
I am not sure that I have the ability to safely put together a control panel myself. I also am becoming increasingly interested in BCS control ability. Remote fill and heat the strike water. Not sure automation is possible with the strangebrew project. I did a Plastic glycol build using bcs and was kinda fun, rather $$ though. I later tried a Arduino based dry cure chamber project that failed (so far). I was never able to get it working. I am sort of worried that the level of competence needed to build the eBrew control panel would be beyond my existing ability. $300 seems too good to be true. I need to re-visit your thread...

TD

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new set of electric kettles through Colorado Brewing Systems (cobrewingsystems.com). Working out the final details. I've been looking for about a year on which kettles I wanted, and these seem to be the winners.

TD

TrickyDick said:

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new set of electric kettles through Colorado Brewing Systems (cobrewingsystems.com). Working out the final details. I've been looking for about a year on which kettles I wanted, and these seem to be the winners.

TD

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They do have good prices... so does this member... http://www.brumatic.com/

TrickyDick said:

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new set of electric kettles through Colorado Brewing Systems (cobrewingsystems.com). Working out the final details. I've been looking for about a year on which kettles I wanted, and these seem to be the winners.

TD

Click to expand...

I'm looking for a similar setup. What drove you to Colorado Brewing Systems?

fuzzybee said:

I'm looking for a similar setup. What drove you to Colorado Brewing Systems?

Click to expand...

The features mostly.

Sight-glass
Tri - clover sanitary fitting option
Electric option
functional whirlpool ports
Experienced welder and bad weld return policy
Competitive pricing
Knowledgeable staff and supports commercial breweries (so they know their business)

TD

TrickyDick said:

The features mostly.

Sight-glass
Tri - clover sanitary fitting option
Electric option
functional whirlpool ports
Experienced welder and bad weld return policy
Competitive pricing
Knowledgeable staff and supports commercial breweries (so they know their business)

TD

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response!

Design questions..

When using a triclover connector to threaded pipe connection, doesn't that basically eliminate the sanitary nature of that particular fitting?

Pumps will be stainless chugger. What are advantages of the center inlet port vs the normal orientation inlet?

Still need to get a sparge arm. Any recommendations?

One more. Sizing the table for the kettles. How close should vessels be? I'm thinking 4-6" apart? Planning to build a stainless cart/table.

TD

TrickyDick said:

Design questions..

When using a triclover connector to threaded pipe connection, doesn't that basically eliminate the sanitary nature of that particular fitting?

Pumps will be stainless chugger. What are advantages of the center inlet port vs the normal orientation inlet?

Still need to get a sparge arm. Any recommendations?

One more. Sizing the table for the kettles. How close should vessels be? I'm thinking 4-6" apart? Planning to build a stainless cart/table.

TD

Click to expand...

I think the triclovers are looked at as bling by many and wanted for aesthetic reasons. Sanitary fittings arent even really needed until post boil anyway. I have both tc and camlock and prefer the camlock fittings for ease of use but tri clovers have the advantage on my conical since they are easier to sanitize as far as the seal goes.

TrickyDick said:

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new set of electric kettles through Colorado Brewing Systems (cobrewingsystems.com). Working out the final details. I've been looking for about a year on which kettles I wanted, and these seem to be the winners.

TD

Click to expand...

I literally just pulled the trigger on kettles from Colorado Brewing Supply. I am going electric with a Two Vessel RIMS setup built into a utility cart. Inspired by a bellinmi88's build on this forum.

Cool! I have a couple more details to sort out on my build before I pull the trigger myself.

What are folks using for a sparge/recirculation return? Is there a consensus that just a silicone hose is best?

TD

Sorted out the last few details.

Visit tonight from my friend who will be installing the hood in the basement (solid poured concrete with re-bar walls). Firmed up the dims on the brew table (74x26x26 for a height to rim of kettles of 52-54" depending on the casters I pick). Hood will overlap that by 2" on sides.

Near finished with the specs on the kettles and the control panel options.

Last thing to decide upon is the HERMS coil length. Really the only two factors I think which are of concern are ramp time with a 6 gallon wort batch vs an 11 gallon wort batch using a 50 foot coil vs a 25 foot coil. I think that the time is likely to be negligible between the two. The "lost wort" factor is also negligible if I sparge throught the coil. The only real concern would be if I am brewing a 5 gallon batch vs a 10 gallon batch then I will need to ensure that the coil would be covered with water. However, that might not even really be a significant issue. For a smaller batch, not a huge issue to have more sparge water than necessary in the HLT to keep coil covered. Would take longer to heat to strike temps, and somewhat wasteful of energy and water if I don't "use" all the water in the beer. This seems to be the only real issue. Of course it will take time to dial in the water volumes and dead spaces but I believe that Beer Smith does gradually adjust the estimated volumes based on previous batched brewed.

TD

There's a thread called something like "$50 dedicated HERMS build" on here somewhere.....dude uses a small pot with an induction hot plate for his HERMS unit.Claims the small amount of water heated vs using the whole HLT for the HERMS works well....check it out before you decide.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=468563

here's link

Lots of good information in that thread, thanks!

Question about brew table sizing. Kettles are 17.75" diameter, three in a row. Thinking 24" front to back, 66" minimum left to right which leave about 3" space on all sides. I'm not going to be moving the kettles at all once I have them set to go. Is that too close? The physical space will allow up to 74" I could increase the spacing to 4" and go to 68" wide. I just am not sure how much spacing is desirable between the kettles to manage the transfers and recirculation.

TD

If you are building it out of wood I would recommend 72" as that works out nicely for cuts and what not with dimensional lumber

Stainless

Placed order for kettles today. Probably won't be up and running for a while however. Still need hood and exhaust hole drilled.

Hood going in today.

Thoroughly pissed off SWMBO.

Had planned for this to get done while out of town on summer vacation but the schedule got hosed.

The friend of mine who is doing it, had to sub contract the hole driller with another person. Takes a special saw to cut poured rebar concrete walls. So today I thought my wife was going to be playing golf, but nope. Tried to get her to arrange some activities out of the house as said metal workers were going to be "stopping by" to finish some gutter work that had started a couple weeks earlier.
So she had a lot on her agenda, but it didn't begin early enough and the hole driller guy parked her in so she couldn't get out.

Then my son spills the fact that I was planning to have this all done while we were out of town...

So I'll be in the doghouse.

Why did I go through all this? Because I know she would be inappropriatly opposed having a hole cut into the wall when it poses absolutely no issues or impact to her or the things stored in the separated basement storage area.

Then on top it all, she is there while hole is being cut..

So shame on me for trying to go behind her back on this one. I should've just told her it was happening today, and she should make plans to be out of the house so it wouldn't upset her with the noise.

TD

TrickyDick said:

Hood going in today.

Thoroughly pissed off SWMBO.

Had planned for this to get done while out of town on summer vacation but the schedule got hosed.

The friend of mine who is doing it, had to sub contract the hole driller with another person. Takes a special saw to cut poured rebar concrete walls. So today I thought my wife was going to be playing golf, but nope. Tried to get her to arrange some activities out of the house as said metal workers were going to be "stopping by" to finish some gutter work that had started a couple weeks earlier.
So she had a lot on her agenda, but it didn't begin early enough and the hole driller guy parked her in so she couldn't get out.

Then my son spills the fact that I was planning to have this all done while we were out of town...

So I'll be in the doghouse.

Why did I go through all this? Because I know she would be inappropriatly opposed having a hole cut into the wall when it poses absolutely no issues or impact to her or the things stored in the separated basement storage area.

Then on top it all, she is there while hole is being cut..

So shame on me for trying to go behind her back on this one. I should've just told her it was happening today, and she should make plans to be out of the house so it wouldn't upset her with the noise.

TD

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And this is why im not married... Dont get me wrong when its good im sure its great!..

Here is a (bad) picture of the hood.

View attachment 1438292241226.jpg

Everyone talks about cheaper PIDs from ebay; which model, links???

thanks!

Mdsutton said:

Everyone talks about cheaper PIDs from ebay; which model, links???

thanks!

Click to expand...

Mypin TA4 or TD4. The TD4 has manual mode which most people like/need for boil kettle control. Should be all over eBay and Amazon for $30ish. Search eBay for "TD4 temperature" and look for a good deal. Might as well get one with an SSR and maybe a pt100 probe for a bit extra.

TA4 does not have manual mode but is fine for HLT control or mash tun temp display. But they're not much cheaper and they might look slightly different if aesthetics is a concern. You can see both in my rebuild thread.

So kettles should be here by the end of the month. Big props to Tim Moore at Colorado brewing systems. Helped me setup a multiple payment invoice after multiple detailed emails about the system I wanted to build, custom welds, etc. Pricing is competitive and has all the features I wanted.

In preparation of the kettles arriving, I was wondering about insulation, or how to keep the kettles from superheating the tabletop (stainless). I was thinking about some cork or silicone mats perhaps? What are others using, or isn't this a real problem? Also wondering about possibly wrapping some light insulation material around the kettles without permanently affixing or disfiguring them, so as to limit radiant heating into the basement. I don't really want to go overkill on this insulation wrap, but I figure a little bit could help stabilize temps and keep room comfortable through the brew day.

Thanks


TD