My First BIAB Experience *PICS*

I usually brew 10 gallon batches every-other-week, mostly using the Batch Sparge method, though occasionally I fly sparge. My typical brew day is right around 6 hours from start to finish and my efficiency averages about 73%. I hadn't planned on brewing this weekend but realized my family had nothing planned, so I figured I'd have some fun trying a few things I'd been meaning to try for awhile: Brew In A Bag, low OG session beer using mostly Munich Light malt, pitching directly from washed and harvested yeast with no starter, and using 100% Perle hops. I'm calling the beer a mOktoberfest, and if all goes well, plan to take plenty to jeffd10's Oktoberfest party in a couple weeks. Here are the details...

As soon as I decided I wanted to brew, I designed the following low OG recipe using BeerSmith:

Brulosopher's mOktoberfest Recipe
Est OG: 1.040 (Actual was 1.035)
Est FG: 1.011
IBU: 23
SRM: 8
Est ABV: 3.8%

Grain
4.75 lbs Munich (10L)
2.50 lbs Pilsner (Canadian)
6.00 oz C60

Hops
14 g Perle @ 50 min
14 g Perle @ 20 min
15 g Perle @ 5 min

Yeast
WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch (harvested and washed, no starter)

EQUIPMENT
15 gallon kettle with ball valve (my boil kettle)
1 large (24" x 24") mesh grain bag
Chugger pump (not necessary)
Plate chiller (not necessary)

I've seen people use a pulley and other gizmos, but I wanted to keep this pretty simple. I only used the pump because I have it, it's certainly not necessary.

PROCESS
I changed my equipment setting in BeerSmith to BIAB and it said to gather the entire water volume into the kettle, essentially making this a "no sparge" brew day. I went with it and gathered just over 9 gallons of filtered water.


While my water was heating, I measured and milled my grains...


...then poured them into my grain bag.


Once my strike water had reached temp (162F for a 156-158F mash), I put the grain bag in the kettle and stirred well.


After about 5 minutes of stirring, my mash was to temp, so I poured myself a Tiny Bottom Pale Ale and relaxed for a bit.


After about 15 minutes I checked my temps and noticed it had dropped about 1 degree, so I laid a sleeping bag over the kettle to preserve as much heat as possible.


Then I had some of my Brulospher's Brown Ale.


Once the mash was complete, I turned my burner on to raise the temp of the wort to 168F for a mash out- this only took about 10 minutes.


I removed the grains and began my boil.


I recently bought these paint strainer bags to use for hops- a maiden voyage.


With about 15 minutes left in the boil, I connected my pump and plate chiller to get everything sanitized- no clogs, the paint strainer bags worked great!


Then I drank this, to stay humble...


While BeerSmith predicted over 80% efficiency, I got right around 65%, which is fine with me. My guess is this was at least partially due to the fact I didn't squeeze the grains or anything. Either way, I then pumped my chilled wort into the fermenter... yep, I still prefer plastic buckets.


Finally, I pitched my yeast and placed the fermenter in the regulated freezer... and again, yep, I always keep cheap beer on hand. Don't hate.


Here's to hoping for best! Also, I like this shot of my brewery at work:


Cheers!

Damn that's nice!

Out of curiosity, how did you drain your grains after the mash? Just hold it? How long did it take? etc.

jwalk4 said:

Damn that's nice!

Out of curiosity, how did you drain your grains after the mash? Just hold it? How long did it take? etc.

Click to expand...

Yep, lifted it out and let it drain for a few minutes. Since it was a small grain bill, it didn't take long at all.

Nice set up. Looks like you could do regular all-grain with the equipment you have (I'm guessing you have done that). Why did you decide to go the BIAB route? Just to try a new technique? Or to simplify your process?

Just curious.

Why 9 gallons of water?

With that little grain, you will lose a couple of quarts. 1.25 gallons in boil off. .25 dead space. Some for teh wort lost to hops.
I'd have gone with 7.25 gallons.

I think you mashed too thin. 36 quarts to 7.25 pounds of grain with enzymes (discounting the C120).


>.Once my strike water had reached temp (162F for a 156-158F mash), I put the grain bag in the kettle and stirred well.
What temperature did you mash at? That thin a mash will denature (actually not protect them from being denatured) your A-Amylase at higher temperatures.

That small an amount of grain will not lower the water temperature so much.

Getting all the dripping out is important. Even a gentle squeeze will get extra sugar.

Was the grain well milled, with a tight crush?


I think if you were to mash at a lower temperature, with less water (sparge for extra efficiency) you would get better results.

BIAB works, but there are things that will affect efficiency. I hope you try it again.

signpost said:

Nice set up. Looks like you could do regular all-grain with the equipment you have (I'm guessing you have done that). Why did you decide to go the BIAB route? Just to try a new technique? Or to simplify your process?

Just curious.

Click to expand...

The only reason I did this was to try something new on a totally unplanned brew day. I usually batch sparge and occasionally fly sparge. It was certainly simpler and I might go back to it for kicks, but I'll stick with batch/fly sparging.

ArcLight said:

Why 9 gallons of water?

With that little grain, you will lose a couple of quarts. 1.25 gallons in boil off. .25 dead space. Some for teh wort lost to hops.
I'd have gone with 7.25 gallons.

I think you mashed too thin. 36 quarts to 7.25 pounds of grain with enzymes (discounting the C120).


>.Once my strike water had reached temp (162F for a 156-158F mash), I put the grain bag in the kettle and stirred well.
What temperature did you mash at? That thin a mash will denature (actually not protect them from being denatured) your A-Amylase at higher temperatures.

That small an amount of grain will not lower the water temperature so much.

Getting all the dripping out is important. Even a gentle squeeze will get extra sugar.

Was the grain well milled, with a tight crush?


I think if you were to mash at a lower temperature, with less water (sparge for extra efficiency) you would get better results.

BIAB works, but there are things that will affect efficiency. I hope you try it again.

Click to expand...

God, everything you pointed out was spot on! I was very curious about the large volume of water BeerSmith recommended, but I just went with it because I was sort of in a hurry to get brewing. By the end of the boil I was still at about 8.25 gallons, hence the lower than expected OG. Also, I said I didn't squeeze or anything, but I did actually press the grain bag against the side of the kettle, mainly to relieve my arm a bit. Either way, 65% with that much extra water and no real sparge indicates to me really good efficiency given the proper volumes, no?

Thanks for the feedback, very interesting! Cheers.

Well, 24 hours after pitching I'm not seeing any signs of fermentation... no krauesen, not airlock bubbling, nothing. I'm not terribly concerned since I pitched harvested and washed yeast that's about 2 months old and it's currently sitting at 62F- I can't imagine it won't take off at some point. I never dump beer (I've got friends who will seriously drink anything), but if this thing never takes off it may be a first. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Still no signs of fermentation. Yet another reason I'll never wash used yeast again, it's too unpredictable. Ehh, I'm now looking for something to project my annoyance onto...

I think I'll pick up and pitch some Notty this afternoon.

Just read this, and sighed... from BYO:

The problem with thin mashes is enzyme stability. Enzymes are less stable in a thin mash and denaturation can become a real problem. The enzyme of concern is beta-amylase, since there is a limiting supply of beta-amylase in comparison to alpha-amylase. If beta-amylase denatures too quickly, then the resulting wort will have a decreased fermentability.

****

I do not recommend using nylon paint strainers during the boil, those temps are too high for a plastic based bag. You can use them for the mash, but I do not recommend it during the boil.

stompbox said:

I do not recommend using nylon paint strainers during the boil, those temps are too high for a plastic based bag. You can use them for the mash, but I do not recommend it during the boil.

Click to expand...

Worked great! I keep it off the bottom of the kettle.

Brulosopher said:

Worked great! I keep it off the bottom of the kettle.

Click to expand...

Yes, I've never seen any problems at all with a nylon bag in the boil so long as it's off the bottom.

So you didn't actually get 65% efficiency, since you were way over your volume? According to my calculations, if you ended up with 8 gallons, you would have needed >100% eff to get to 1.035. Something isn't adding up.

I use washed yeast all the time, and it's worked all but one time. Now that I have the technique down and make starters, I hardly buy yeast.

tennesseean_87 said:

So you didn't actually get 65% efficiency, since you were way over your volume? According to my calculations, if you ended up with 8 gallons, you would have needed >100% eff to get to 1.035. Something isn't adding up.

I use washed yeast all the time, and it's worked all but one time. Now that I have the technique down and make starters, I hardly buy yeast.

Click to expand...

I was going to ask this. How does washed yeast not work if you create a starter (unless of course you didn't)? I would assume that you wouldn't get any action in the starter and would know ahead of time that the yeast was *bad*. I just washed my first yeast a few weeks ago and am wondering if I should prepare for it not to work in a few months.

the home brew beers that you were drinking looked cloudy to me - do you grind your irsh moss real fine in a pepper mill?

If you keep it in the fridge, it should be good for a while. I've heard report for starters made after a whole year. I've not done nearly that long, but have gone for several months.

What's this about grinding Irish moss? I use it (unground), but I don't always get crystal beer (chill haze, maybe?).

Trokair said:

I was going to ask this. How does washed yeast not work if you create a starter (unless of course you didn't)? I would assume that you wouldn't get any action in the starter and would know ahead of time that the yeast was *bad*. I just washed my first yeast a few weeks ago and am wondering if I should prepare for it not to work in a few months.

Click to expand...

I said in the original post that I didn't make a starter. It was a shotgun brew day

BOBTHEukBREWER said:

the home brew beers that you were drinking looked cloudy to me - do you grind your irsh moss real fine in a pepper mill?

Click to expand...

Nah, they're both clear. It was warm out and you're seeing condensation.

BOBTHEukBREWER said:

the home brew beers that you were drinking looked cloudy to me - do you grind your irsh moss real fine in a pepper mill?

Click to expand...

I thought they looked pretty good, I can see the bottom of the other side of the glass! I'd kill for my beers to be that clear....

jwalk4 said:

I thought they looked pretty good, I can see the bottom of the other side of the glass! I'd kill for my beers to be that clear....

Click to expand...

I use Irish moss/Whirlfloc, ferment well, cold crash for 24-48 hours, and keg. Also, I've become a huge fan of WLP090 yeast because it drops almost as well as English strains, unlike WLP001... which I used in the beers you saw. Cheers!!

I raised the temp in my fermentation freezer from 63 to 69... and my airlock was bubbling like crazy when I got home for work. Ahh, finally.

Just dumped it... BIAB is great. That beer? Not so much... ugh!

Well if the whole point of this post was to make us jealous of your brewery setup..it worked!! grr.

dbsmith said:

Well if the whole point of this post was to make us jealous of your brewery setup..it worked!! grr.

Click to expand...

Hahaha... or to embarrass myself I'm currently using the setup now, brewing two 5 gal batches side by side- Stout and Sticke

Glad you enjoyed your BIAB experience. Regarding your low efficiency, remember you won't stick a mash with BIAB so grind the crap out of your grain. Check out the pictures. I get my grain bills milled when I order them, then I run them through my corona mill again on brewday. Note how much finer it is after the second grind. I use Irish Moss at the end of the boil, and my beers are crystal clear.

Brulosopher said:

Just read this, and sighed... from BYO:

The problem with thin mashes is enzyme stability. Enzymes are less stable in a thin mash and denaturation can become a real problem. The enzyme of concern is beta-amylase, since there is a limiting supply of beta-amylase in comparison to alpha-amylase. If beta-amylase denatures too quickly, then the resulting wort will have a decreased fermentability.

****

Click to expand...

I mash pretty thin and have never had any issues with fermentability, or lack thereof at least. I shoot for 6.5 gallons of wort post boil and usually start with around 8-9 gallons depending on grist and boil time.

AnchorBock said:

I mash pretty thin and have never had any issues with fermentability, or lack thereof at least. I shoot for 6.5 gallons of wort post boil and usually start with around 8-9 gallons depending on grist and boil time.

Click to expand...

Define "thin". It means different things in different contexts.
For traditional mashing, 2- may be considered thin.
For BIAB I am wondering if 3-1 is ok. 4-1?
For "thin" BIAB mashes, call it 4-1, I think you need to mash longer, and ad lower temperatures. I think a 4-1 thickness (thinness) at 156 would not work as well, due to the Beta Amylase being denatured.


The only problem with grinding too fine is you may end up with flour (and husk bits) in your ferementor.

ArcLight said:

Define "thin". It means different things in different contexts.
For traditional mashing, 2- may be considered thin.
For BIAB I am wondering if 3-1 is ok. 4-1?
For "thin" BIAB mashes, call it 4-1, I think you need to mash longer, and ad lower temperatures. I think a 4-1 thickness (thinness) at 156 would not work as well, due to the Beta Amylase being denatured.


The only problem with grinding too fine is you may end up with flour (and husk bits) in your ferementor.

Click to expand...

Last few batches ranged from 2.5 qt/lb (mash at 151, 16 lbs grist) up to 3.95 qt/lb (mash at 158, 8 lbs grist). I do full volume mashes always and haven't found the water-grist ratio to be too important for my process. I've been experimenting with 60 minute mashes for some batches lately and have definitely found that to produce a less fermentable wort than a 90 minute mash(which is what I was targeting) and my efficiency has dropped a couple % as well, but this isn't real definitive data yet.

I agree about grinding too fine - I use the standard setting at the LHBS and don't mind if there's a hit to efficiency to avoid grinding to a pulp and ending up with even more trub than I already do (I leave 1.25-1.5 gallons of wort/trub behind every batch).

>.up to 3.95 qt/lb (mash at 158, 8 lbs grist).

I am interested in the mash thinness vs conversion curve. At what point is the mash too thin, with respect to OG and FG? At some point I would like to experiment. Maybe 3 experiments 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, at 150F. I suspect the thinner mashes need more time (90+ minutes instead of 60). Then repeat at 155F, see if the Beta Amylase is denatured before it can do its job.
On the other hand, a tight crush may partially offset the thinness, so it would require quite a few experiments, especially if one wants to repeat them, though I could do them on my stove with small quantities of grain and water.

>.up to 3.95 qt/lb (mash at 158, 8 lbs grist).
At that temperature it just seems "too thin", as the Beta Amylase gets denatured quickly.
I think this will be noticeably less fermentable.
But without an experiment, there is no proof as to what is too thin.

When I BIAB mash I aim for full volume + grain, but its never thinner than 3-1.
The bigger gain bills are a problem, as I mash thicker, and then soak the bag in 2 gallons to rinse out the extra sugar.

ArcLight said:

>.up to 3.95 qt/lb (mash at 158, 8 lbs grist).

I am interested in the mash thinness vs conversion curve. At what point is the mash too thin, with respect to OG and FG? At some point I would like to experiment. Maybe 3 experiments 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, at 150F. I suspect the thinner mashes need more time (90+ minutes instead of 60). Then repeat at 155F, see if the Beta Amylase is denatured before it can do its job.
On the other hand, a tight crush may partially offset the thinness, so it would require quite a few experiments, especially if one wants to repeat them, though I could do them on my stove with small quantities of grain and water.

>.up to 3.95 qt/lb (mash at 158, 8 lbs grist).
At that temperature it just seems "too thin", as the Beta Amylase gets denatured quickly.
I think this will be noticeably less fermentable.
But without an experiment, there is no proof as to what is too thin.

When I BIAB mash I aim for full volume + grain, but its never thinner than 3-1.
The bigger gain bills are a problem, as I mash thicker, and then soak the bag in 2 gallons to rinse out the extra sugar.

Click to expand...

Have you read this - http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Effects_of_mash_parameters_on_fermentability_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing ?

"water to grist ratio: the enzymatic activity of the amylases is effected by the thickness of the mash. Thinner mashes enhance the maltose production and therefore increase the fermentability."

The 158 mash with 8 lbs of grist was only a 60 minute mash and went from 1.042 to 1.016 (Scottish 70/-) with WLP001 - I really haven't seen a change in attenuation based on mash thickness, only on the sach rest temp. Thinner mashes with BIAB seem to increase mash efficiency though - hard to say if that's only from using less grain though as opposed to the thin mash.

ArcLight said:

Define "thin". It means different things in different contexts.
For traditional mashing, 2- may be considered thin.
For BIAB I am wondering if 3-1 is ok. 4-1?
For "thin" BIAB mashes, call it 4-1, I think you need to mash longer, and ad lower temperatures. I think a 4-1 thickness (thinness) at 156 would not work as well, due to the Beta Amylase being denatured.


The only problem with grinding too fine is you may end up with flour (and husk bits) in your ferementor.

Click to expand...

The husks normally shred but remain quite long and stringy. They rarely get out of my bag during the brew. I do notice a bit more trub than if I don't re-grind, but an improvement in efficiency of 15% or better more than makes up for it. I was having a hard time getting my numbers up until I started crushing the crap out of it, and I haven't really noticed enough trub to worry about it. The Irish Moss or whirl-floc seems to firm it up and drop it to the bottom of the kettle during cold-break and I can leave it behind in the kettle.