Water Profile for a APA?

Anyone know what profile I should go by?

Ray daniels suggests softer water than English versions. Don't burtonize your water. Think on the low side of all recommended salt ranges. CaSo4 around 50-100.

From Pale Ales by Terry foster
Ca 50 - 100 ppm, SO4 100 - 200 ppm, Cl 20 ppm
I've been using his recommendations for some time now, and find them excellent.

-a.

Ajf- I don't have the book. What do you think, worth getting?

I think it was worth getting, but I don't know what you want to get out of it.
It has a lot of historical information, and a dozen recipes. Each recipe has a suggested water profile (which doesn't exactly match what some others say about water profiles).
For me, his water profiles were worth their weight in gold, and saved me a great amount of time and money in determining a suitable water treatment for English style beers.
I've also used his recommendations for APA's and American IPA's, and everybody who has tried them has been happy and come back for more.
With the exception of the water profiles, I think that Designing Great Beers (Ray Daniels) and New Brewing Lager Beer (Greg Noonan) both give much more bang for the buck.

-a.

I use Randy Mosher's profile for Pale Ales for APAs and IPAs.
Ca: 110
Mg: 18
Na: 17
Cl: 50
SO4:350
CaCO3: 57

I've had success with Mosher's profile too but I reduced the S04 to about 250 so that I wouldn't blow out my Ca level. My S04 is regularly 15ppm.

Foster gives a profile fairly similar to Mosher's for an American IPA with an OG of 1.070
Foster suggests Ca 150 - 200, SO4 300 - 400, Cl 30
I could treat my water to fall in that range, but there's no way I could get 350 ppm SO4, while keeping the Ca and Mg down to 110 and 18 respectively unless I used sulfuric acid.

-a.

How does this look as a profile

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 26.4
Mg: 12.6
Na: 40
Cl: 90
SO4: 87.1
HCO3: 49

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.5 / 2.5
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 2 / 0.67
CaSO4: 6 / 2
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 2 / 0.67
NaHCO3: 1 / 0.33
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 103 / 103
Mg: 19 / 19
Na: 50 / 50
Cl: 90 / 90
SO4: 232 / 232
CaCO3: 96 / 96

RA (mash only): 11 (6 to 11 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.39 (Very Bitter)

ajf said:

From Pale Ales by Terry foster
Ca 50 - 100 ppm, SO4 100 - 200 ppm, Cl 20 ppm
I've been using his recommendations for some time now, and find them excellent.

-a.

Click to expand...

I actually go with 155 Cl and 182 SO4 and I find that my APAs do not have the necessary fruitiness.
Do you think I should lower the Cl to a minimum?

In my opinion, 155 ppm Cl is much too high. I would reduce it to a maximum of 30, and (when you drink it) make a note of the difference it makes.

-a.

Elysium said:

I actually go with 155 Cl and 182 SO4 and I find that my APAs do not have the necessary fruitiness.
Do you think I should lower the Cl to a minimum?

Click to expand...

As mentioned above, that Cl level is probably too high. The combination of high sulfate and high chloride tends to produce minerally perceptions and flavor. Fortunately, the 182 ppm sulfate is not really high. If you boost the sulfate to 300+ ppm and used that high chloride, I'm pretty sure the beer would come across as minerally. Reducing the chloride to under 50 ppm is a good idea if you want to toy with the high sulfate level that I prefer: 300 ppm.

This thread is nearly 2 years old, so I feel secure in jacking it.

2 questions about nailing a pale ale profile:

1) I only have Calcium Chloride and Gypsum at my disposal, can I match this profile without raising my Chloride levels too high? Oops. Edit: I forgot about epsom salts. I can get that easily and that seems to boost my sulfate quite a bit

2) I like a pale ale that balances the hops and a malty backbone. With Brunwater's Pale Ale profile, the SO4/CL ratio is 5.5 (VERY bitter territory). Soothe my fears, if possible. How much does the ratio matter? I read AJ's sticky on the subject, but it doesn't really answer my question.

Edit: New screen shots



@Yooper, @mabrungard ?

Thanks guys.

The more factual descriptors for the ratio are: full and dry, not malty and bitter. Having a higher SO4/Cl ratio means that the beer finish is going to be more drying. That allows the hop flavor and bittering to come through a little more to the drinker. It does not actually make the beer more bitter.

Using epsom salt is a good idea for these bittered and hoppy styles. You don't use much. I just finished my first pound box of epsom salt and it only took 13 years of brewing. The smallest package I could subsequently find was a 2 pound bag, so that should last longer than I will.

Awesome. Thank you.

From the screenshot, it looks like you're adding both baking soda, and lactic acid? You don't want to do that. Remove the baking soda and see where the mash pH is, and go from there.

Yooper said:

From the screenshot, it looks like you're adding both baking soda, and lactic acid? You don't want to do that. Remove the baking soda and see where the mash pH is, and go from there.

Click to expand...

I was thinking of using the baking soda for the sodium content.

I know that the baking soda and acid is redundant as far a PH goes.

Would you suggest I skip the sodium addition?

jwalk4 said:

This thread is nearly 2 years old, so I feel secure in jacking it.

2 questions about nailing a pale ale profile:

1) I only have Calcium Chloride and Gypsum at my disposal, can I match this profile without raising my Chloride levels too high? Oops. Edit: I forgot about epsom salts. I can get that easily and that seems to boost my sulfate quite a bit

2) I like a pale ale that balances the hops and a malty backbone. With Brunwater's Pale Ale profile, the SO4/CL ratio is 5.5 (VERY bitter territory). Soothe my fears, if possible. How much does the ratio matter? I read AJ's sticky on the subject, but it doesn't really answer my question.

Edit: New screen shots

@Yooper, @mabrungard ?

Thanks guys.

Click to expand...

I started with 250-300 ppm sulfate, tasted off to me. Since I have backed down to 150 ppm and 50 chlorides. What I leaned in doing the switch is: 250 ppm sulfate bloated the drinkers of the beer, made them feel full i.e. Caused water retention in the gut which is what epsom salt does, and the beer had an artificial mineral taste to it. I also learned is to establish a known ratio for a beer style, start on the lower end of the scale and add the missing qualities of minerals to your beer upon tasting. Using palmers how to brew water additions section is helpful in outlining the ppm range and qualities of water salts. I've even made diluted salt solutions to add to beer when it was finished to dial in mineral qualities.

It's easy to add salt, but once its in there...

rnm410 said:

Caused water retention in the gut which is what epsom salt does,

Click to expand...

Well it often isn't retained that long and it's the magnesium. Think milk of magnesia (Mg(OH)2), magnesium citrate and what they are used for.

rnm410 said:

..and the beer had an artificial mineral taste to it.

Click to expand...

Not too surprising that lots of minerals lend a mineral taste.

rnm410 said:

I also learned is to establish a known ratio for a beer style, start on the lower end of the scale and add the missing qualities of minerals to your beer upon tasting.

Click to expand...

I think this is very wise and often advise people to start out with very low levels of both sulfate and chloride or even just chloride and build up after tasting dosed finished beer.

Hi, I am also trying to get my water to a good APA profile. I have been disappointed with the various all grain Pale Ale attempts I've made, I'm concerned the water maybe a contributor. I did have very good results with a Helles. Attached is my water report from Ward. I have loaded them into Brun Water, and made some adjustment. Before I fire up the kettles, is there any recommendations or comments?

Thank you, John

jwalk4 said:

I was thinking of using the baking soda for the sodium content.

I know that the baking soda and acid is redundant as far a PH goes.

Click to expand...

Assuming you want a mash pH of 5.5 and 1 mol (23 mg) of sodium per L you could add 1 mmol of NaHCO3 and 0.91 mmol of lactic acid to each liter. You would have 0.12 mmol/L bicarbonate and 0.91 mmol of lactate ion in the water.

Or you could add 1 mmol of NaLac and .027 mmol of lactic acid per liter (the extra acid needed because NaLac is a slightly basic salt) leaving 1 mmol/L sodium and 1.027 mmol/l Lac-. The pH is the same in either case and the resulting ion concentrations are pretty close. So take your pick. I assume you don't have calcium lactate to hand so I'm sure you'd pick the first method. Lowering pH in the mash/kettle will get rid of the extra bicarbonate.

ajdelange said:

Assuming you want a mash pH of 5.5 and 1 mol (23 mg) of sodium per L you could add 1 mmol of NaHCO3 and 0.91 mmol of lactic acid to each liter. You would have 0.12 mmol/L bicarbonate and 0.91 mmol of lactate ion in the water.

Click to expand...

What instrument would I need to measure at those quantities?

BrewerNH said:

Hi, I am also trying to get my water to a good APA profile. I have been disappointed with the various all grain Pale Ale attempts I've made, I'm concerned the water maybe a contributor.

Click to expand...

I'm hoping that you added some degree of mineralization to that water. While that water is a great starting point, it could use more mineralization for many beer styles. I find this is especially true when brewing APA or IPA. They would be a bit bland if brewed with that unadulterated tap water.

You'd measure the bicarbonate or sodium lactate with a balance and the lactic acid (which brewers usually buy as a solution) with a pipette though it can be measured with a balance as well.

ajdelange said:

You'd measure the bicarbonate or sodium lactate with a balance and the lactic acid (which brewers usually buy as a solution) with a pipette though it can be measured with a balance as well.

Click to expand...

I have lactic acid and a dropper. But a balance like this ?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bala...UIBygB&biw=1366&bih=632#imgrc=EVobfbK28ixLvM:

Any sort of mass measuring device that can reliably discern to about 0.1 grams is suitable for typical homebrewing use. Larger breweries might be able to get by with a scale that discerns down to about 1 gram.

jwalk4 said:

I have lactic acid and a dropper. But a balance like this ?
https://www.google.ca/search?q=bala...UIBygB&biw=1366&bih=632#imgrc=EVobfbK28ixLvM:

Click to expand...

I should have said 'scale' though indeed they all balance something or other against the force of gravity.

We talked about a mmol of sodium in the earlier post. You'd get that from a millimole of sodium bicarbonate which weighs 83 mg or 0.083 gram. It would be nice to have something that weighs down to 0.001 gram (1 mg) and indeed these can be found for under $100 but they have small upper capacity limits e.g. 20 g x 0.001 g. These are a bit harder to find than scales rated 100g x 0.01 g or thereabouts and there are dozens of those to choose from. The high accuracy, low total weight ones are often used by jewelers so check 'jewelers scale' and 'gram scale'.

High accuracy is necessary when experimenting with the amounts of salts/acids/bases to be added to small volumes of water in the 'lab' (your kitchen or garage). When scaling up to full brew size the high accuracy is no longer needed and 20 grams total capacity may not be enough. A kitchen scale that reads 500 g x 0.01 g or x 0.1 g will do for that.

mabrungard said:

I'm hoping that you added some degree of mineralization to that water. While that water is a great starting point, it could use more mineralization for many beer styles. I find this is especially true when brewing APA or IPA. They would be a bit bland if brewed with that unadulterated tap water.

Click to expand...

Thank you Martin.

Here's my first pass using your calculator. I read your excellent Brun Water paper last night, I'm a bit overwhelmed by all of this. Clearly, I don't know what don't know, but getting closer. Any comments or suggestion are most welcome. For the record the water comes from a deep well, ~35 miles north of Boston. "Bland" is a good description of the previous results.

Martin,

Just looking at #28 and noticed that his source water was unbalanced by 0.2 but that the finished water is unbalanced by 1.3. If I take his alkalinity number as correct (IOW if he took alkalinity from his water report and calculated bicarbonate from that rather than the other way around) his profile balances at pH 6.62. Making the additions he made to the balanced profile I get a finished profile with 7.90 mEq/L cations and anions. I believe you forgot to include the, in this case, lactate ion as its contribution is equal to the spreadsheet's anion deficit.

Yes, the free-version of the sheet doesn't include the proper accounting of the added acid anion. It is an otherwise innocuous error that doesn't affect the results.

Hey just out of curosity, where do you obtain the figures for your water? Send it off to a Lab? Or maybe you have an in house kit?

J-Rock44 said:

Hey just out of curosity, where do you obtain the figures for your water? Send it off to a Lab? Or maybe you have an in house kit?

Click to expand...

My results came from Ward Laboratories. It's a painless process with options for submitting samples and report types.

John

mabrungard said:

Yes, the free-version of the sheet doesn't include the proper accounting of the added acid anion. It is an otherwise innocuous error that doesn't affect the results.

Click to expand...

Capisco but it sort of says 'This spreadsheet has an error. What else is wrong?' I'd rather put blank fields than something that is obviously wrong. Perhaps put a solid field (no number) of a particular color with an annotation, and/or general comment in the instructions, that says when you wave your credit card you get to see what's behind the green doors.

How do you obtain the different water profiles like the Apa?.

studmonk3y said:

I use Randy Mosher's profile for Pale Ales for APAs and IPAs.
Ca: 110
Mg: 18
Na: 17
Cl: 50
SO4:350
CaCO3: 57

Click to expand...

Are those figures in grams for a 5 gallon batch or are they in ppm?

Also, if it's in PPM, that is equal to mg/ litre. So I should just multiply by the number of litres of the total water used (mash+sparge) to arrive at amounts of salt needed ,right?

Sorry, I'm a noob. I have to know this before my first batch.. and I'm using RO..

Thanks in advance.

Brewdogs said:

Are those figures in grams for a 5 gallon batch or are they in ppm?

Click to expand...

Those numbers @studmonk3y quoted are in ppm.

Brewdogs said:

Also, if it's in PPM, that is equal to mg/ litre. So I should just multiply by the number of litres of the total water used (mash+sparge) to arrive at amounts of salt needed ,right?

Click to expand...

Sort of. You can't add any of these cations or anions without also adding an associated anion/cation. Examples: to add calcium, you have to add it as calcium chloride, or calcium sulfate, or even calcium hydroxide.

So to do the math, you have to know what percentage of the weight of the salt is made up of the ion you are targeting. And when building a whole profile, the math is cumbersome. That's why there are several software options, some free, that make it easier.

VikeMan said:

Those numbers @studmonk3y quoted are in ppm.



Sort of. You can't add any of these cations or anions without also adding an associated anion/cation. Examples: to add calcium, you have to add it as calcium chloride, or calcium sulfate, or even calcium hydroxide.

So to do the math, you have to know what percentage of the weight of the salt is made up of the ion you are targeting. And when building a whole profile, the math is cumbersome. That's why there are several software options, some free, that make it easier.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for the reply. I'll read more about this and also use calculators that are available online.
Cheers!