Westvleteren 12 Group Brew & Swap

does anyone know of an extract recipe to try for this?

i'm VERY new to brewing, but i've probably drank a couple cases of westvleteren 12 over the last couple years and i'd love to be able to even get in the ballpark.

Probably something like this would be a decent extract recipe for a 5.5g batch
120 min boil means somewhere around 8-8.5g preboil volume
5.75lbs pale liquid malt extract
5.75lbs pilsener liquid malt extract
2 bottles (3lbs) of Dark Candi Syrup (D1)
use the same hop schedule and yeast

Bokonon said:

I think I'm going to brew this on sunday. Still haven't finalized my recipe yet, I'm going to try to hit LHBS tonight to find some hops to use. I haven't bought hops in forever since I have a nice stockpile, but most of them are good for american beers.

I think I'm going to go for a long boil and I thought I'd look at my 2007 barleywine notes to see what it took for the long boil. Thought the numbers might help someone else going to do a long boil.

I use a converted keg for my kettle and that brew was in november so the temp and humidity are a bit different but at least its a data point.

I had 23.5 lbs of grain (22lbs was base malt). At the time this was my biggest beer so I wasn't sure what kind of efficiency I would get.

I ended up doing 3 batch sparges to get what I needed. Collected 12.5 gallons total and boiled it down to get 6 gal in the fermenter. This took 4 hours once it hit the kettle. I missed my planned OG by 3 points, but I was happy with the 1.110 that I got. 2lbs of turbinado sugar went into the kettle when I started boiling

That beer turned out great and I won a bunch of awards with it. It will be at the GABF pro-am this year.

I don't think I would do another 4 hour boil again, I'd just use a bit more grain. I think a 2-2.5 hour boil would be a reasonable tradeoff.

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I think a 2 hour boil is probably where this one is at. I'm also think that adding the candi syrup early in the boil is going to help promote some more color. Unless you are doing a really large batch I don't think you'll have problems maxing out your MLT with this one. 17.5lbs of grain can go into my 10g MLT @ 1.5qt/lbs pretty easily

saq said:

Probably something like this would be a decent extract recipe for a 5.5g batch
120 min boil means somewhere around 8-8.5g preboil volume
5.75lbs pale liquid malt extract
5.75lbs pilsener liquid malt extract
2 bottles (3lbs) of Dark Candi Syrup (D1)
use the same hop schedule and yeast

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You forgot that he's not doing any decoct, therefor not adding any breadyness, I'd probably say at least a tiny mini-mash, just to throw in some biscuit/aromatic to add back that breadyness. Something more like this:

.5# pale malt
.5# pilsner malt
.25# Biscuit
.25# Aromatic

5.25# pale liquid malt extract
5.25# pilsner malt extract

saq said:

I think a 2 hour boil is probably where this one is at. I'm also think that adding the candi syrup early in the boil is going to help promote some more color. Unless you are doing a really large batch I don't think you'll have problems maxing out your MLT with this one. 17.5lbs of grain can go into my 10g MLT @ 1.5qt/lbs pretty easily

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I've got a 70 quart MLT so I can definitely go big. I'm considering kicking up the grain so I get what I need from the 1st runnings for this and then collecting enough for a blonde. I'll have to revisit my last partigyle notes to see what numbers I had for that.

Regardless of what I do I'll try to pull samples at certain points and take some pics. It would be nice to see what color the wort is before the boil and then at a few points through a long boil

Edit: Maybe we can get a list of people commited to doing this and put it in the first post. I haven't participated in a swap on here, how would it work? Send beer to everyone doing it or each person send to two others? Regardless of the way I think it would be cool to setup a date/time for everyone to get in the chat room and sample the beers at the same time and discuss

I subscribed to this thread. I will probably brew one of these recipes sometime this summer.

Bokonon thats exactly what I was thinking.

Lets start a list of everyone who is dedicated to brewing this beer within the next two weeks for the brew & swap, and also for getting on chat at the same time (at an undetermined date in the future) and do a live group tasting.

I think the number should be small so we don't get wasted during the tasting. I also think we should be looking at only all-grain brews since the main mission of this project is to replicate the famous Westy 12.

I'll edit the first post later for more info on the two recipe guidelines we will be using, along with the concrete information known about this beer.

I'll start the list of people that have said they are in that will be doing all grain. Please confirm that you are down for brewing this soon and swapping with the other people in about 4 months. I think we should limit this to 10 people.
1: saq (confirmed)
2: Freezeblade
3: Bokonon
4: Saccharomyces
5: KingBrianI (confirmed)
6: Displaced Masshole
7: bashe

You can confirm me, I'll definitely be brewing this. I've got all the ingredients on their way to me right now (minus the northern brewer hops and dark candi sugar I'll have to buy at the lhbs). I ordered Hallertau hops before you posted that it actually uses hallertauer hersbrucker, do you think the plain hallertau will be close enough or should I try to locate some hersbrucker? Also, does anyone know what percentage of the fermentables come from the sugar? I'm going to aim for 30+ SRM in beersmith and hope the decoction and long boil take the color up to 40. I'm a bit worried about the amount of dark candi sugar it seems like I'll need to use to get the SRM to 30 though. Also, how the heck do you say westvleteren? That's been bugging me and when I tell people what I'm planning to brew I feel dumb saying, "well, umm, west...uh...vel-et-eren? maybe". haha

Here's my updated recipe as of right now. It is adjusted to 85% efficiency and a 5.5 gal batch.

OG 1.090
IBU 37.9
SRM 30.5 not including decoction and boil darkening
FG 1.011
ABV% 10.36

6.5 lbs. Dingeman's Pale malt
6.5 lbs. Dingeman's Pilsner malt

1.75 lbs. dark candi syrup (homemade)
1.0 lb. dark candi sugar (store bought 275L stuff)
both added during vigorous fermentation (~3 days after pitch)

1.36 oz. Northern Brewer (60 min.)
0.25 oz. Hallertauer (15 min.)
0.25 oz. Styrian Golding (15 min.)
0.25 oz. Hallertauer (flameout)
0.25 oz. Styrian Golding (flameout)

Mashed with an enhanced double decoction with rests at 97 degrees, 133 degrees and 149 degrees before mashout at 168.

Boil will be 2 hrs.

I'll use a big starter of Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity). I'll pitch at 66-68 degrees and then let it ramp up to 82-84 until fermented out completely. Bring back to ~70 degrees until about a month after pitching. Then rack to secondary for "lagering" at about 50 degrees for ~3 more weeks. Bottle and carbonate at 78 degrees.

The only thing I might change at this point would be to add a bit more of the homemade dark candy syrup to bring the sugars up to 20% of total fermentables. I would of course lower the grain amounts slightly so that OG remains 1.090. How does it look?

i googled and came up with this recipe.... any thoughts?


0.66 lbs. Belgian Caramunich®
0.68 lbs. American Caramel 20°L
7.95 lbs. Liquid Light Extract
3.42 lbs. Dry Extra Light Extract
0.26 lbs. Candi Sugar Dark
1.3 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 60 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 15 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 1 min.
Yeast : WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity



BeerTools.com Recipe Library - Westvleteren Abt 12 Clone

saq said:

I think the number should be small so we don't get wasted during the tasting. I also think we should be looking at only all-grain brews since the main mission of this project is to replicate the famous Westy 12.

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Since these are all big beers I wonder if it would be good to do the tastings over a span of time. Rather than trying to sample a bunch of beers in one session and not appreciating them or getting palate fatigue. Depending on how many beers maybe it should be limited to 2-3 in a tasting session.

Bokonon said:

Since these are all big beers I wonder if it would be good to do the tastings over a span of time. Rather than trying to sample a bunch of beers in one session and not appreciating them or getting palate fatigue. Depending on how many beers maybe it should be limited to 2-3 in a tasting session.

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Well I've only got one authentic bottle of Westvleteren 12
I was planning on doing my tasting with two friends who have had the real deal before and have really good palates. I'll be online in chat at the same time of course to talk with the rest of you.

you can confirm me, but I'm going to have to wait untill the 20th, as I'm coming up on finals week, and have no time to brew

First post updated with a lot of info.

Damn...if only this was a month later. I'm supposed to close on a house I'm buying on friday, no way in hell I'm brewing anything any time soon. I'll be watching this thread for sure though.

After visiting my LHBS last night I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to have to brew like a monk and use the closest stuff I can get. They don't have dingemans malt anymore and no styrian goldings.

I'm still going to brew something like this, but who knows if it will be a clone. If there are too many people doing this I can opt out of the swap since I'll probably be the least closest version.

I've got a couple hundred pounds of base malt at home (german pils, domestic 2-row, maris otter, munich, vienna) and a big variety of specialty grains.

I'm definitely going to use some german pils and probably some domestic 2-row. I've got some belgian specialty grains I could use.

If anything, this is going to turn into a Pacificnorthwestvleteren 12

Indeed brewing like a monk is encouraged. I'm sure if you don't use Dingemans or Styrian Goldings it's not going to ruin the beer. Hell we might find a combo that is superior to the original!
I'd say use the german pils and domestic 2-row and see what happens. The most important part of this beer is obviously the yeast (easy to reproduce) and then the sugars IMO.

I'm planning to use Franco Belges pils, Canada malting 2-row toasted in the oven, home-made dark candi sugar with DAP, and Mt Hood hops.

Differences in process/ingredients are one of the things that make the swaps worthwhile to begin with. If everybody brewed exactly the same beer it would be less interesting!

Water Profile
Brew Like A Monk reports that Westvleteren has a water profile that is not the most desirable for brewing, and specifically states that they treat their water because its high in bicarbonates, sodium, sulfate and chloride. The profile of Westvleteren's water profile is as such.

Westvleteren Water Profile
Calcium: 114
Bicarbonate: 370
Magnesium: 10
Sodium: 125
Sulfate: 145
Chloride: 139

I was thinking about how I would want to treat it, and remember reading that Chimay has a wonderful water profile, and several brewing chemists consider it "perfect for brewing". I think this might be pretty damn close to what Westvleteren shoots for when they treat it.

Chimay Water Profile
Calcium: 96
Bicarbonate: 287
Magnesium: 4
Sodium: 6
Sulfate: 32
Chloride: 13

This fits in with what water chemistry I know about water profiles for dark beers that is also confirmed by BLAM as being desirable for a Belgian Dark Strong Ale.

I have also added this to the first post.

You can confirm me for this one as well. I'm not gonna be able to brew until the end of this month though, all my fermenters will be tied up until then.

On a side note......anyone in the San Diego are know of a place that sells the DAP yeast nutrient? I couldn't find any at Ralph's or Von's.

Your LHBS didn't have di-ammonia-phosphate?

Displaced MassHole said:

You can confirm me for this one as well. I'm not gonna be able to brew until the end of this month though, all my fermenters will be tied up until then.

On a side note......anyone in the San Diego are know of a place that sells the DAP yeast nutrient? I couldn't find any at Ralph's or Von's.

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Funny, I was just at Home Brew Mark looking for DAP yesterday, usually they have it in stock, but they are currently all out I've got some sugar that I am carmalizing up as we speak. I used a squeeze of lime juice to provide the acid to invert, then I'm following the long proceedure of getting it to carmalize without DAP. Bring to 290, add water (it drops to 220ish here) let it get back up to 290, add water, etc. untill the color I want is gotten. I'm probably going to have to do a last-minute order of some dark candi syrup from AHS or something, due to lack of DAP.

I made my starter last night for the New World recipe. I'm brewing it just like I have it in the first post on Sunday. Then sometime a week and a half or so after I'll do the traditional.

I'm cooking up my candi syrup right now. It's actually kind of fun. Anyway, I'll be brewing next week and had a couple questions. First, what does brew like a monk have to say about whirlfloc or irish moss or stuff like that. I always use whirlfloc but for this beer I'm considering not. Firstly, it will be so dark I doubt it would make a difference in clarity, secondly, there will be yeast in the bottle anyway to cloud it, and lastly, I always feel like it reduces head retention when I use it. Anyway, thats question one.

My second question has to do with pitching rates. The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator says I need about a 2 liter starter with 2 smack packs. I only have one smack pack and was just going to step it up once. How do I calculate the volume of the first and second steps? I'd like to slightly underpitch, in order to bring out more of the yeast characteristics, but not underpitch by so much that attenuation suffers. Thanks!

KingBrianI said:

My second question has to do with pitching rates. The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator says I need about a 2 liter starter with 2 smack packs. I only have one smack pack and was just going to step it up once. How do I calculate the volume of the first and second steps? I'd like to slightly underpitch, in order to bring out more of the yeast characteristics, but not underpitch by so much that attenuation suffers. Thanks!

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Couple of options here.

1. Use the Mr. Malty calculator to figure out the size of starter you need to produce the equivalent of 2 smack packs. That is your first step, then your second step is the 2 liter starter.

2. Use the Mr. Malty calculator to figure out any arbitrary two steps you want, although #1 is the most convenient.

3. Wyeast has a starter calculator for homebrewers that lets you enter information for two steps all at once. Not as many options as the Mr. Malty calculator though (plenty of options for your situation).

I usually go with #1 in a similar situation.

I think I've figured out what I'm going to do, but still haven't worked out the exact numbers.

I'm using 11.5 gal batch in beersmith for my calculating now, but that might get adjusted when I look over my old big brew notes.

I'm going to end up steeping some of the "new world" specialty grains in a different pot and then add that "tea" to one fermenter that will be the "new world" fermenter. The other will just get the normal wort.

I'm going to do my sugar additions a few days into the ferment and I'm planning on 2lbs of homemade dark and 1lbs of table sugar in each fermenter. Actually I might add the table sugar right into the boil kettle to let it carmelize a bit.

Depending on how they turn out I might end up blending a .5-1 gal of each batch into a different set of bottles.

I'll be brewing tomorrow unless something comes up

I just happen to be brewing up a 3 gal batch of my westy 12 recipe tomorrow (sorry, not part of the swap), and I always brew it with a 3L starter of a westy harvest. To get the 85+% attenuation Westvleteren sees in the 12, you want to pitch a LOT of yeast and allow it to heat up.

KingBrianI said:

I'm cooking up my candi syrup right now. It's actually kind of fun. Anyway, I'll be brewing next week and had a couple questions. First, what does brew like a monk have to say about whirlfloc or irish moss or stuff like that. I always use whirlfloc but for this beer I'm considering not. Firstly, it will be so dark I doubt it would make a difference in clarity, secondly, there will be yeast in the bottle anyway to cloud it, and lastly, I always feel like it reduces head retention when I use it. Anyway, thats question one.

My second question has to do with pitching rates. The Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator says I need about a 2 liter starter with 2 smack packs. I only have one smack pack and was just going to step it up once. How do I calculate the volume of the first and second steps? I'd like to slightly underpitch, in order to bring out more of the yeast characteristics, but not underpitch by so much that attenuation suffers. Thanks!

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The monks don't use any whirflock, the 10 week "lagering" phase @ 50f clears out the beer. They say they lose an average of 8% of the beer due to this fining process. I'm not putting any whirflock in.

For MrMalty, first off make sure your beer stats are in (OG @ volume) and then set the slider is all the way over to the right, that assumes one smack pack/vial.
Also be sure to check how you are making your starter (simple starter, w/o2, continuous aeration, shaken, stir plate).
Your starter is going to want about 48 hours before its totally done. Without a stir plate you are going to need a BIG starter, like 6 liters if just shaking. A stir plate goes a long way towards making good beer!

Read another important tidbit in BLAM last night, Westvleteren does not let the ferment temp rise above 84. So 82-84 is our target temp. He also states that if you try and cool the ferment temp too much the yeast can crash and slow way down and stop fermenting.
I guess its better to let ferment temp rise slow and err on the side of caution. I'll start with a 70f ambient temp in my fridge and see what kind of delta there will be, and then rise up some and get it locked in at 82f.

saq said:

The monks don't use any whirflock, the 10 week "lagering" phase @ 50f clears out the beer. They say they lose an average of 8% of the beer due to this fining process. I'm not putting any whirflock in.

For MrMalty, first off make sure your beer stats are in (OG @ volume) and then set the slider is all the way over to the right, that assumes one smack pack/vial.
Also be sure to check how you are making your starter (simple starter, w/o2, continuous aeration, shaken, stir plate).
Your starter is going to want about 48 hours before its totally done. Without a stir plate you are going to need a BIG starter, like 6 liters if just shaking. A stir plate goes a long way towards making good beer!

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Don't get me wrong, I've made plenty of starters, and use the Mr. Malty calculator for every one. I was just inquiring about how best to calculate the step-up. With the slider all the way to the right, it was still calling for 2 packs. I ended up doing a one liter starter in order to get the cell count up to 200 mil, then I'll decant and add 2 liters more wort to get the cell count up to the 300-something mil it recommended. The one liter starter has been spinning away on the stir plate since yesterday.

EDIT: Billions, not millions I mean.

Plan sounds good, I'm thinking 1.5-2L for 2.5-3 gal target volume on the stir plate.

I'm planning to go with no sparge, 10 lb of grain @2qt/lb, boil down to whatever volume to hit the OG. Then add the sugar boiled and diluted to the the OG along with Fermaid-K when I boost the temp from 70*F to 80*F+, probably 2 days in. :rockin:

I brewed up my batch today. Split into 2 fermenters. For one of them I steeped .25lbs each of special b, aromatic, biscuit, caramunich in 1 quart of my first runnings (to hopefully get some enzymes in there) and 1 quart of water, this was boiled and then added to the fermenter which was topped off with the normal wort.

They are sitting in my chest freezer now waiting for it to come down another degree or two before I pitch my yeast.

Of course I forgot to take pictures of the wort at different points in the boil. I ended up doing a 150 minute boil

I'm going to let the yeast get rockin at 67 then in 36-48 hours I'll add my sugars and set my temp controller to only cool to 82. I don't think the temp will climb all the way up by itself so I might ramp the temp up 2-3 degrees a day

Just finished brewing with one of my good buddies who I'm going to do the tasting party with. Brew day of the Westy 12 "new world" went pretty well. 90 min mash, 90 min boil, came in a little under volume but probably right on gravity. Added the sugar in the last 10 minutes of the boil. The beer actually was pretty dark, darker than the anticipated 26 SRM.
Vorlaufing went really fast, I had some seriously CLEAR beer in a very short order coming out of the valve into the pitcher for vorlaufing. We actually hit a 6.25 hour brew day which is pretty damn fast for my one 10g MLT/BK combo ass.
I made up a 4.7L starter and decanted to a seriously thick slurry (400ml?), and then poured out two vials of slurry into white labs vials. Should be right around 3 effective liters give or take.

Here is my final brew notes.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.54 gal
Estimated OG: 1.090 SG
Estimated Color: 26.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 74.71 %
1.00 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5.53 %
0.50 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.77 %
0.33 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 1.83 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.38 %
0.19 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.05 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 24.7 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.40 %] (30 min)Hops 5.0 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (30 min) Hops 8.5 IBU
1.00 item Servomyces (10 min)
1.50 lb Dark Belgian Candi Syrup (80.0 SRM) Sugar 8.30 %
0.75 lb Amber Belgian Candi Syrup (40.0 SRM) Sugar 4.43 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 15.77 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 24.00 qt of water at 159.3 F 150.0 F

Water Profile in PPM
CA: 86.8
MA 7.8
NA 18.4
HCO3: 116.94
SO4: 60.3
C: 38.2


I'll do the traditional recipe in about 2 weeks.

KingBrianI said:

Don't get me wrong, I've made plenty of starters, and use the Mr. Malty calculator for every one. I was just inquiring about how best to calculate the step-up. With the slider all the way to the right, it was still calling for 2 packs.

EDIT: Billions, not millions I mean.

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Well, you were doing an 11.5g batch and I was doing a 5.5g batch If you change the volume the vial count does decrease from 2 to 1. Can't wait to try this beer, its going to be a long 13 weeks.

saq said:

Well, you were doing an 11.5g batch and I was doing a 5.5g batch If you change the volume the vial count does decrease from 2 to 1. Can't wait to try this beer, its going to be a long 13 weeks.

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My batch is 5.5 gal too. If you fill out the Mr. Malty Yeast calculator with 1.090 OG, 5.5 gal. batch, and yeast manufacture date of April 7, 2009 with the slider all the way to the right and use a stir plate, it says to use 2 vials of yeast in a little over 2 liters. I just hope that the recommended rate isn't going to be too much, so that the yeast doesn't produce all the neat flavors and aromas it should. At least it should attenuate completely. I'm planning on mashing at 148 for 90 minutes. Hope I don't go down past 1.011!

KingBrianI said:

My batch is 5.5 gal too. If you fill out the Mr. Malty Yeast calculator with 1.090 OG, 5.5 gal. batch, and yeast manufacture date of April 7, 2009 with the slider all the way to the right and use a stir plate, it says to use 2 vials of yeast in a little over 2 liters. I just hope that the recommended rate isn't going to be too much, so that the yeast doesn't produce all the neat flavors and aromas it should. At least it should attenuate completely. I'm planning on mashing at 148 for 90 minutes. Hope I don't go down past 1.011!

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Ah, true. Didn't notice that age made such a difference before. Mine was quite a bit fresher than that.
I know that in professional pitching amounts (1500ml of pure slurry for 7barrel) the first generation doesn't do as well as later generations. I would think a stir plate would have a very similar effect...

Well, 6 hours later I've got a lot of airlock activity and krauzen, its alive!. Added some more fermcap-s. It might not be enough, this yeast is hungry!

Yesterday I got my temp dialed in at about 81.5f, I upped the thermometer a little bit more this morning so it should end up at 82f by the end of the day. The airlock is going crazy and I plan on checking my gravity level tonight to see how far I am so I can get a decent idea of when to start cooling.

So I decided to take a gravity reading and see where I'm at. Seemed a little early but since we need to start cooling before we reach terminal gravity. Turns out it was a good idea for me to check because my SG was 1.019 which is about 78% apparent attenuation! Cranked the temp down to 63f so I should hit 65f beer temp sometime tomorrow for its last 4 days of fermentation.

saq said:

So I decided to take a gravity reading and see where I'm at. Seemed a little early but since we need to start cooling before we reach terminal gravity. Turns out it was a good idea for me to check because my SG was 1.019 which is about 78% apparent attenuation! Cranked the temp down to 63f so I should hit 65f beer temp sometime tomorrow for its last 4 days of fermentation.

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Hope that doesn't shock the yeast and get them to quit fermenting!