Phosphate ban in WA state? Star-san

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NWernBrewer

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I caught a blurb on the news this morning about the eventual (1 - 2 years) statewide ban on cleaning agents containing phosphorus. Looked into it a little more and phosphate is a salt of phosphoric acid. I am thinking that this may include Star-san in the long run.

Any chemists/chemical enthusiasts have any info?

"The phosphate ban is important to Spokane. We need it," said Sen. Brad Benson, R-Spokane.

Phosphates – common in fertilizer – spur the growth of algae in lakes and rivers. When algae dies and decays, it uses up oxygen in the water. Result: ailing or dead fish.

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/tools/story_pf.asp?ID=119068
 
"The phosphate ban is important to Spokane. We need it," said Sen. Brad Benson, R-Spokane.

Phosphates – common in fertilizer – spur the growth of algae in lakes and rivers. When algae dies and decays, it uses up oxygen in the water. Result: ailing or dead fish.

I'm not even sure this is true.
 
I think a more accurate statement is the when the algae die they are no longer replenishing the oxygen supply in the water that the fish need to survive. But regardless of the shoddy scientific study - this seems to be happening. I don't know that Star-san will be covered - but I prefer it to Iodopher - and want to be able to use it w/o hassle.
 
I think a more accurate statement is the when the algae die they are no longer replenishing the oxygen supply in the water that the fish need to survive. But regardless of the shoddy scientific study - this seems to be happening. I don't know that Star-san will be covered - but I prefer it to Iodopher - and want to be able to use it w/o hassle.

But isn't he saying the phosphates "spur" the grow (not spurn). So I think the argument is that the phosphates make the algae grow too well and then when they die their seasonal death, the biomass of decay depletes the oxygen.

I think this is his argument and I'm not aware of any good studies out there that support it.

The fish may be dying; and it may be due to phosphates. But to blame phosphates based on that logic is suspect.
 
I saw some article about all the nitrates in the Mississippi river causing huge growths of algae in the gulf, which was killing all the shrimp in the area.....or it was something to that nature. I'm guessing this is a similar issue.
 
Well, I did some research. Seems I didn't know my algae very well. During the day algae photosynthesize producing O2. However, at night, they respire and consume 02. Seems in studies the O2 becomes harder to replace after nighttime respiration if daytime photosynthesis is slowed (due to bad weather, clouds, etc).

Man, you learn something everyday.
 
I don't see how this can possibly go over well with consumers. More phosphates come from fertilizers and 'wildlife waste' as they call it than from dishwashing detergents. And either way, it's going to be unfair. If they do the ban for the 3 counties affected, all it means is people in those counties will go out of their way to buy soap. And if they pass it for the entire state, then you get many people who aren't even affected by the phosphate pollution to suffer for it.
 
I saw some article about all the nitrates in the Mississippi river causing huge growths of algae in the gulf, which was killing all the shrimp in the area.....or it was something to that nature. I'm guessing this is a similar issue.

Right before Katrina hit, I was watching a documentary on this topic. Basically they were saying that there used to be a buffer zone between the ocean and the inland, but because of the domino effect with the phosphate runoff (fertilizer from Agribusiness) it resulted in just that. The losses of the buffer zone are on the order of acres per day. They claimed (just before the hurricane hit) that the buffer zone was crucial to minimizing the impact of a devastating hurricane.
 
I don't think you have anything to worry about. Phosphates were a major green issue back in the 70's. (Man, am I showing my age or what?)

Anyway as a result there are almost no detergents that use phosphates any longer, at least not in the USA. If you don't believe me try and find one that doesn't say Phosphate Free.

It sounds to me just like some pols trying to get their name in the news pryor to the election this fall.

I don't think Star-San would be effected by any phosphate ban on cleaning agents since it is a sanitizing agent not a cleaning agent.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.
 
Right - it is not a cleaner - and phosphate is specifically the salt of phosphoric acid not the solution itself.

If I read the article right it looks like automatic dishwashing detergents would be about the only things affected at it stands. But when we pass a "good intentions" law, this state has a tendency to really go all out and overboard. Smoking bans in cigar bars...
 
Well, I did some research. Seems I didn't know my algae very well. During the day algae photosynthesize producing O2. However, at night, they respire and consume 02. Seems in studies the O2 becomes harder to replace after nighttime respiration if daytime photosynthesis is slowed (due to bad weather, clouds, etc).

Man, you learn something everyday.

This also happening in the Gulf at the base of the Mississippi delta. The phosphates run off causing large red algal blooms. The blooms consumer ALL the oxygen in the water and kill off everything.


http://www.lacoast.gov/watermarks/2004-09/1hypoxia/index.htm
 
phosphate is specifically the salt of phosphoric acid not the solution itself.

Salt or the free acid form, makes no difference to the algae (or other plants), they will readily take it up. Abacaddabra is right. This was a big issue in the 70's, lots of big fish kills in the news and lots of slimy green rivers and lakes, hence the ban on phosphate based laundry detergents.

The respiration by the algae at night is not a big deal, they still produce much more O2 than they consume (otherwise most life on earth would not exist). Although if there is enough algae such that there is so much competition that they can't get enough CO2 from the water they will revert to doing photorespiration (different for regular respiration) and during the daylight will consume O2 to generate ATP - this results in not happy algae and can lead to their death if it goes on long enough. Also the aerobic bacteria that eat up the dead algae can consume a whole lot of O2 and grow very quickly making a bad situation even worse.

A big problem with phophastes is that sewage treatment plants can't really do anything to remove them. There are some facilities that use ponds with all kinds of aquatic critters in them to remove a lot of the excess nutrients, but they typically are fairly small scale and not suitable for large cities. If they really are finding large amounts of phosphates specifically in the effluent for sewage treatments plants, then the problem should be addressed some how.
 
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