Are White lab yeasts always slow to start?

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DustinHickey

DustinHickey

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Hello All,
I have been all grain brewing for a month and a half now and have done 6 batches. Hehe, ( i do a batch a week ). During my travels I have used Wyeast, White labs, and Safeale / safebrew dry yeasts when the recipie seemed right. I have always liked the White labs yeast best because of the ease of application and the veriety of yeast strains availible however I noticed that they always take the longest to start. The vial states that it should start between 1 and 15 hours but I never see this occur.

I pitched 2 vials of british ale yeast to a high grav IPA and it took a while for it to begin. (maybe 3 day?)

I pitched one vial into a 2 quart starter once and it did nothing for 3 days. I had to throw the thing out.

I also pitched 1 vial of Irish ale yeast to a stout last night at around 8 PM and I dont see any sign of movement at them moment except for the airlock being pushed up. (im a bit worried because it looks so delectible)

Anyway, the question is, are their yeast viles always this slow? I have them shipped to me with ice packs from rebel brewer and I remove from fridge about 3 hours before use if anyone is asking how they are handled.
 
If you don't make a starter, then yes, they will usually take a long time to start.
If you do make a starter, then the starter often looks as though it is doing nothing, but you should be able to see the starter getting cloudier as the yeast multiplies.

If the sample is old (they have a best used by date on them), then it will also take longer to start.

-a.
 
The due date was july 2010 so thats definatly not the problem. It only says you need the starter if the OG is 1.070 or higher. With starters, shouldnt you atleast see the airlock bubling ? when I made mine I thought I killed the yeast because there was no Co2 production at all. Didn't even raise the airlock.

Also, I never use starters with any other yeast and they always take off quicker.
 
As to whether or not you need a starter for White Labs yeast, you could check out:
http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices
and
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Both of these people are better qualified than I am, and both quote many references to acknowledged experts, none of which have any affiliation with White Labs.

Although they do disagree in minor areas, they largely agree with each other.
One thing they agree on, is not to use an airlock when making a starter, as this will keep out oxygen which is needed by the yeast to multiply. (See the first chart in the Raines article to see what effect this has.)
I have used both Wyeast and White Labs in low gravity brews without a starter, and in each case, I had extended lag times (several days). With a starter, by lag times are usually about 4 hours.
I use a stir plate to make my starters (most of which are made using harvested yeast). Usually, I don't notice any krausen or any obvious signs of fermentation except that I can see the build up of yeast in the starter.
Starters are unnecessary (in fact harmful) if using dry yeast because they already have adequate cell counts, and when I do use a dry yeast, I have short lag times.

-a.
 
Personally, I would recommend doing a yeast starter for every beer you brew. For low gravity beers it could be fairly small, but high gravity beers it might need to be pretty big. When I use a starter, I get fast visible fermentation once pitched, pretty much always within 12 hours. The occasional times I don't make a starter I have had the same experience as you -- very slow fermentation.

As suggested above, look at mymalty.com for recommendations of starter sizes. I'll give you my personal testimony that my beer is always better when I make a starter -- for every beer.
 
Starters are the most unexciting fermenters ever. I consider myself lucky to see a thin layer of krausen looking crud when I make one.

Read through this yeast/fermentation area for awhile Dustin. You may be like me and eventually come to the conclusion that a starter is a good idea with MOST brews, IMHO
 
DustinHickey said:
Hello All,
I have been all grain brewing for a month and a half now and have done 6 batches. Hehe, ( i do a batch a week ). During my travels I have used Wyeast, White labs, and Safeale / safebrew dry yeasts when the recipie seemed right. I have always liked the White labs yeast best because of the ease of application and the veriety of yeast strains availible however I noticed that they always take the longest to start. The vial states that it should start between 1 and 15 hours but I never see this occur.

I pitched 2 vials of british ale yeast to a high grav IPA and it took a while for it to begin. (maybe 3 day?)

I pitched one vial into a 2 quart starter once and it did nothing for 3 days. I had to throw the thing out.

I also pitched 1 vial of Irish ale yeast to a stout last night at around 8 PM and I dont see any sign of movement at them moment except for the airlock being pushed up. (im a bit worried because it looks so delectible)

Anyway, the question is, are their yeast viles always this slow? I have them shipped to me with ice packs from rebel brewer and I remove from fridge about 3 hours before use if anyone is asking how they are handled.
Click to expand...

The four White Labs yeasts I've been using the last year. I pitch 200ml grown directly from the vial in 1.035 degree wort.

WLP037 ferments insanely quick. It's not rare to get a krausen forming within the hour.

WLP038 is a quick starter, but no where near as quick as #37.

WLP006 is really, really, really, really subtle, but it does ferments and makes a delicious starter.

WLP022 is wicked slow to start. wicked slow to start. wicked slow to start.

Bottom line is yeasts are different and super finicky.
 
StAnthonyB said:
The four White Labs yeasts I've been using the last year. I pitch 200ml grown directly from the vial in 1.035 degree wort.

WLP037 ferments insanely quick. It's not rare to get a krausen forming within the hour.

WLP038 is a quick starter, but no where near as quick as #37.

WLP006 is really, really, really, really subtle, but it does ferments and makes a delicious starter.

WLP022 is wicked slow to start. wicked slow to start. wicked slow to start.

Bottom line is yeasts are different and super finicky.
Click to expand...

+1 it is strain dependent and (assuming similar pitching rate) has nothing to do with vendor.
 
I make a starter for every batch I brew with liquid yeast. I put my starters on a homemade stir plate, and I have yet to see any obvious signs of fermentation in any of my starters. What I do see is a gradual color change. The starter (using light DME) starts off a semi-translucent brown color and gradually starts to take on a more creamy appearance (like a 1-2 liter version of what I see in my white labs tubes before pitching). A starter is a heck of a lot cheaper than 2 vials of yeast, and I usually see a pretty aggressive fermentation going within 12-24 hours after I pitch my starter.
 
I like pitching starters made from White Labs when I'm not pitching a dry yeast strain. No matter what strain (I mainly use California, Irish, or British), I haven't noticed a difference in lag times....maybe my yeast cell counts are just comparable. I'd evaluate your methods for making starters if there's that much of a difference between pitching a starter vs dry yeast. It's either that or your source yeast isn't as viable and needs an even larger starter.
 
I ALWAYS make a starter. The benefits far outweigh the additional time spend in the kitchen. I tried to direct pitch the vials two times and had super long lag times. Buy a stir plate and build a starter regardless of the strain or brand of liquid yeast.
 
I actually enjoy the whole starter process (my yeast babies) but that is just me!
:ban:
I like to decant my DME made starter, and get the guys used to eating the fresh wort from my Brew day. So I take a few pints of the wort, chill in fridge, and toss onto the yeast while they are still in the 3/4 gallon jug I use.
Then I pitch at high krausen the next day. I no chill, and that is another thread, but it works for me.
 
So just to be sure then, When you make starters you don't see any bubbling in the airlock? ( in other words ) maybe the first starter I made wasn't ruined?
 
DustinHickey said:
So just to be sure then, When you make starters you don't see any bubbling in the airlock? ( in other words ) maybe the first starter I made wasn't ruined?
Click to expand...

You don't want to use an airlock with a starter; the more oxygen you get in the starter wort, the better. Just cover it loosely with aluminum foil.
 

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