All Grain Haze, please help

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guinnessface

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I just finished my second all grain batch. While I'm pleased with the taste & texture, I've gotten an unidentifiable haze in both batches. I've done a number of partial mash and extracts in the past with much clearer results.

I brewed 2 kits from Austin Homebrew: an American Pale Ale & a Fat Tire Clone. I followed the recipes to a tee using a cooler MLT built to specs. I recycled the wort for about 20 minutes before I sparged. As far as I could tell, I hit my temps all pretty well. I first added some burton salts (recommended dose for 5 gallons) before mash-in. Instead of letting it boil for the full 60 minutes, I continually stirred the wort with a spatula at boiling temp to prevent scorching (a first time technique for me.....bad idea)? I added hydrated irish moss for the last 15 minutes of the pale ale....I forgot to do so for the fat tire. I cooled the wort as quickly as I could using an ice water bath and a sanitized/frozen 2L bottle of water directly in the wort acting as an ice cube (20 minutes give or take). I was pretty damn close to my target numbers, at least not alarmingly off. I poured the wort into primary through a strainer and a medium mesh bag to retain most of the hops and moss. I used starters for both. After a week in primary, I siphioned through a fine mesh bag into a carboy for a a week of secondary, again at room temp (I added Claro KC to the the fat tire). My FG numbers were almost spot on. After straining again and kegging them both, I had great tasting beers with the clarity of a belgian wit. There was no sediment or off flavor, just a real cloudiness that puts chill haze to shame.

I've tried to do a little research so as not to bother you all every time I have a question, but I'm baffled. I've used very simlar techniques for mini-mash and at most, have gotten a little chill haze. I even bought a water filter and used the kegging syste, to push some beer through it as a trial run with no good results. I have a stout and another pale ale on order and I don't want to make the same mistakes. I also have a bavarian lager in primary and I'm hoping it's not doomed.

I'm wondering if it's a protein issue. My OG was a little short, but not bad for a beginner. I took every step to prevent chill haze as well as sediment. Would that constant stirring be an issue?. I figured the irish moss and/or the finings would've made a difference. I have to assume that it's something I'm doing in the AG steps or the boil. I just brewed an extract for a buddy and it's already clear as a bell in secondary. Any advice/analysis would be of great help. I'd like to prevent this from happening agiain. Thanks in advance for your time.

Guinnessface
 
What are you using to mash with (converted cooler, pot with false bottom etc.)? If you're allowing particles through during the mash they may still be around despite further straining.
Don't forget to vourlof until the wort runs clear between mash/sparge and between sparge/boil. Also, stop your siphon when you start to see yeast and trub coming through.

Sorry if these things seem basic, just trying to see what could be missing.
 
One thing I've noticed is that at 2 (even 3) weeks. My beer still needs time to clear up. My clearest beer was a dunkelweizen. At 3 weeks there was a definite haze, but over the course of another month, it cleared up and was almost flawless. That would be my first piece of advice. Just let it sit.

On the other side, you could try a protein rest at 122 or more Irish moss.

If none of that does work, you could always exclusively brew stouts and wheats. At that point you don't want a clear beer.

On a side note, do you know the make up of your water? Are you adding salt to a specific ppm point or just adding it on top of your existing water? Everyone's water has a different salt content and adding it to an already high in salt water could disrupt your flow. But then again, if it tastes good, you're doing it right. I only ask because I'm thinking getting into the water treatment game.

Thanks in advance and best of luck
 
I have been brewing for a few years and still get chill haze even when it is clear in the secondary. I have read that it could be low flocculation of yeast or longer proteins "congealing". I tend to serve at 48 degrees and almost always have haze. I figure if I invested in a cartridge filter system I could eliminate it, but I'm not that bothered by it.

Good luck, I'll watch to see what others say.

BannonB
 
After a week in primary, I siphioned through a fine mesh bag into a carboy for a a week of secondary

That's your problem. Let it sit 4 weeks in Primary and see if that doesn't clear your beer up. I bet it will.
 
One thing I've noticed is that at 2 (even 3) weeks. My beer still needs time to clear up. My clearest beer was a dunkelweizen. At 3 weeks there was a definite haze, but over the course of another month, it cleared up and was almost flawless. That would be my first piece of advice. Just let it sit.

On the other side, you could try a protein rest at 122 or more Irish moss.

If none of that does work, you could always exclusively brew stouts and wheats. At that point you don't want a clear beer.

On a side note, do you know the make up of your water? Are you adding salt to a specific ppm point or just adding it on top of your existing water? Everyone's water has a different salt content and adding it to an already high in salt water could disrupt your flow. But then again, if it tastes good, you're doing it right. I only ask because I'm thinking getting into the water treatment game.

Thanks in advance and best of luck

This.

Also the fact that you did something different from before. I assume you know your H2O chemistry before you added the salt.

My first AG was hazy for a long time and finally cleared. I made a lot of mistakes on that one however and none since have taken as long to clear. My water is however more suited to darker beers.

Alan
 
Your constantly stirring method might be to blame for the haze, but more is just too much work! You're not going to get any significant scorching with AG, the main scorching risk is with concentrated extract lying on the bottom of the kettle.

But if you kept stirring all through the hot break you probably reduced the particle size of those coagulated proteins, making them much more difficult to get to settle out. They will settle eventually, with one or more of: time, cold, and finings. Note that this is only a guess, beer clarity is a very complicated topic. Maybe check out the Brew Strong podcast on haze with Dr. Bamforth for some insight.

FWIW, I never use any finings (including whirlfloc) and after 3-4 weeks of primary and 1-2 months (at least half of that upright in the fridge) in bottles nearly every one of my beers has been crystal clear in the glass. That said, I don't give a hoot about clarity and one of my favorite breweries here in Portland makes all kinds of murky yet delicious ales.

Good luck!
 
Thanks a million for all of your quick and helpful replies. To answer clarify a few things:

-I was pretty good about the vorlof procedure...it seemd to run pretty clear after a while.
-I've been using bottled spring water, as the tap water here is vile. I read that the burton salts help prevent chill haze, so hopefully I haven't been doing more harm than good.
-I'll agree with the time aspect. I suppose that extracts and mini-mashes can sit for a shorter time due to the extract. I'll do my best to fight impatience and let the primary sit for a little longer.
-That's interesting about the stirring.....I'll leave it alone after the foam up next time and see what happens.

Thanks again for all of your input. cheers!
 
Thanks a million for all of your quick and helpful replies. To answer clarify a few things:

-I was pretty good about the vorlof procedure...it seemd to run pretty clear after a while.
-I've been using bottled spring water, as the tap water here is vile. I read that the burton salts help prevent chill haze, so hopefully I haven't been doing more harm than good.
-I'll agree with the time aspect. I suppose that extracts and mini-mashes can sit for a shorter time due to the extract. I'll do my best to fight impatience and let the primary sit for a little longer.
-That's interesting about the stirring.....I'll leave it alone after the foam up next time and see what happens.

Thanks again for all of your input. cheers!

I did not even catch the stirring part. How big is your pot? I have a 15 gallon pot which I never stir unless I'm just piddling with it. Boil overs etc are for extract and stove toppers. Once its boiling all you need to worry about are hop addition times.

BTW I've been doing all grain for years and now I'm doing less instead of more. Some of the best beers you will try are very simple without the ridiculous variety of malts and 14 different hop varieties. Ever tried Rogue "Yellow Snow"? 2-row, melanoiden and maybe one or two hop varieties. Very simple yet an outstanding beer. Sometimes when we start out we try to do too much. Keep it simple control your processes and your ferment temps and you will brew good beer.

Good Luck
Alan
 
Alan-

Good advice, thanks. I think the next few in the pipeline are pretty simple, so I'll make sure the basics are squared away. Another thing I'd like to pay attention to is making sure the mash and sparge temps are spot on. Hopefully I'll start seeing some better results.

Much appreciated-
 
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