ATTN: New England Folks, especially VT. Is it Just me or has VT. beer gone downhill?

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Zymurgrafi

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NEK, VT
I guess this is a rant.

I really used to like many of the breweries here in Vermont but I just cannot recommend or drink many of the beers anymore. They tend lately to be mediocre to bad. I am not saying all of the breweries but many of the "major" ones. I find myself looking out of state if I buy commercial beer.

Example. I used to really like Long Trail Double Bag. I bought one today and it was foul. Maybe it was a bad bottle? Maybe it was old? It was heavy on off-flavors. DMS? But it is not the first time I have had an off beer from them.

Mediocre Hat, well, they have been going downhill for a long time.

Otter Creek I used to really enjoy too. A good standby. Their pale ale, porter and Copper (altbier) ale were all solid. I had them recently at a party and they were, meh.

Rock Art is coming out with some interesting things and I really enjoy their Vermonster, but they can be really hit or miss too sometimes.


Have my standards just changed and perhaps are too high? Or is the beer just not as good as it was here in VT?

Like I said, I am not bagging all Vermont breweries. I know there are some really good ones making excellent brews. They just aren't available all over.

Okay, glad i got that off my chest. :eek:
 
Maybe your taste buds are still pissed off you chewed them out so badly recently.:D

I have to agree on some of that. I used to like Magic Hat a lot. While I still enjoy Roxy Rolles, it just seems they put too much time into their oddball marketing and not enough into their beer.

I was thinking of getting my SS recipient something from Rock Art. Should I abandon that plan?
 
Tragic Hat has always been crap. Never had long trail. Otter Creek is the same as it ever was: good for the price. Your tastes have changed, methinks...especially if you ever though Tragic Hat was any good.
 
I'll bet your palate has changed. Once you get into drinking better beer, there's really no going back. I used to like Newcastle, and even Guinness for that matter. Now, I can't be bothered with either. they just taste bad to me (more bland than bad, I guess, but not inspiring by any means.)
 
Yeah, another vote for your palatte getting more discerning (which can be good or bad). I had a Long Trail a little while back, and it was just boring; better than BMC, but not by that much. And Magic Hat - another vote for Roxy being really good, and another vote against pretty much everything else they make. Mostly OK (except #9, which we all know is terrible), but nothing exceptional.
 
Magic Crap has made some decent beers. Not many, but some and certainly nothing amazing. I'll stop there as I could go on and on and on!

I think Long Trail was pretty good. I dunno why some of them have tasted so bad lately. Like I said, Double Bag was great. Hit the trail ale (English Brown) and Long Trail ale (altbier) were good. Seasonals like Hybernator (Scottish ale I think) I remember being alright but I am afraid to try it again. Especially because they seem to only be available in 12 packs.

Maybe it is poor storage/handling from the store? I do not think so though as the off-flavors are pretty bad. I think it would have to be some REALLY rough handling to create them.
 
Oh, and to answer your question Shecky. I think a Rock Art brew could be a good choice for SS. Especially the Vermonster.

To be honest I was resampling locals to decide what I would include.
 
Oh, and to answer your question Shecky. I think a Rock Art brew could be a good choice for SS. Especially the Vermonster.

To be honest I was resampling locals to decide what I would include.
Thanks. I've only had one Rock Art sampling and it was a few years ago so I don't remember what it was. I do remember that it was awfully good.
 
I'm not a big fan of Rock Art I can't recall anything I've had from them being that good. Mcneils (did I spell that right?) makes some nice stouts. +1 on the Roxy. It's a shame that the Alchemist doesn't package their beers I don't think many breweries can match the beer you can get there. Vermont pub and brewery does some fine stuff too. Long trail is ok and don't forget Harpoon is also in Vermont and they still make some pretty good beer. I love our yearly trip up to Stowe.
 
I'm not a big fan of Rock Art I can't recall anything I've had from them being that good. Mcneils (did I spell that right?) makes some nice stouts. +1 on the Roxy. It's a shame that the Alchemist doesn't package their beers I don't think many breweries can match the beer you can get there. Vermont pub and brewery does some fine stuff too. Long trail is ok and don't forget Harpoon is also in Vermont and they still make some pretty good beer. I love our yearly trip up to Stowe.

McNeill's is pretty good. They can be inconsistent in their bottled beer. Overfilled,undercarbed, not so clean... Hopefully the new bottling line and brewery will help that. I hear fresh from the brewery is best.

Alchemist is pretty damn good. Yes, sad they do not distribute. I cannot get over that way often.

Vermont pub and brewery is not always very good. You would think with Noonan being the owner it would always be great but I have had some subpar beer there.

Long Trail was good. It just seems I have had issues with bad batches or something.

Harpoon does make some good solid beer but really they are a Boston brewery who just happens to have a branch in Windsor. I have a hard time calling them a Vermont brewery. Their 100 barrel series has been pretty good and the first of the new Leviathan series (IIPA) was excellent. Still, Boston though.
 
Right! That's it! I am done with Vermont brews! I am pissed! What the Fuuck happened!

I picked up some brews when I was in Montpelier today, a Rogue Yellow Snow and a McNeill's Champ ale. I cannot usually get McNeill's where I am and again, I USED to think their beer was great.

ARGH!

I had the Yellow Snow first. It was great. Usually I am not too impressed with Rogue. Yes, I know heresy, but that is how I feel. Anyway, I am now TRYING to choke down the Champ ale. What a let down after a nice beer.

I have had this one before and thought it a really nice fresh APA.

Now I am thinking... WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?!!

F'ing CLOVES and white pepper batman! Smells and tastes like a damn Saison or a tripel with APA dose of American hops. Very unpleasant. But then I do not enjoy those styles. Also, I was expecting a pale ale.


GRrrrrrrrrr.

Vermont breweries I am done with you! :(
 
Harpoon does make some good solid beer but really they are a Boston brewery who just happens to have a branch in Windsor. I have a hard time calling them a Vermont brewery. Their 100 barrel series has been pretty good and the first of the new Leviathan series (IIPA) was excellent. Still, Boston though.

We may be a Boston based brewery, but we still have a LOT of influence from our roots in Vermont. In the next couple weeks we will be brewing our next 100 Barrel Series beer. This will be a beer very much influenced and dedicated to the awesome culture we inherited from Catamount.

Oh and as far as our IPA tasting like a Longhammer, I disagree! I think Longhammers taste like dish soap (maybe too much Galena IMHO?) while ours is much more Citrusy from the boatload of Cascade hops ours get...
 
We may be a Boston based brewery, but we still have a LOT of influence from our roots in Vermont. In the next couple weeks we will be brewing our next 100 Barrel Series beer. This will be a beer very much influenced and dedicated to the awesome culture we inherited from Catamount.

Well then, here is a PR opportunity for you to show some of that residual "awesome culture we inherited from Catamount"

This guy would like some help brewing a Catamount Porter clone. Care to help weigh in and offer some guidance for recreating this?
 
I'll do my best! As far as anything Catamount is concerned, we own all of Catamount's recipes and stuff. Catamount actually went under in 1998 and we purchased the shuttered brewery in 2000. 2001-2002 we brewed many of their beers, among them Catamount Pale Ale and Catamount Porter, unfortunately they did not sell well enough to keep them afloat with all of our other lines...

I am working on getting the Catamount Pale Ale recipe right now, so I'll add the porter to the list too!
 
Vermont pub and brewery is not always very good. You would think with Noonan being the owner it would always be great but I have had some subpar beer there.

I always find it kind of funny that the guy who wrote the lager bible almost never has any lagers on tap at VPB! Had some pretty disappointing ales there, too, but I'd still go back again! Unless I was going to the Alchemist, that is ;)
 
okay, I'll give a little love back to VT. Beer by beer. They'll have to earn it!

As I mentioned earlier... did I? If not I will say it now. Rock Arts' Vermonster is wonderful! One of my favorite American barley wines! Kudos to Matt and Renee.

Another I will give some love back for is Otter Creek Stove Pipe porter. Drinking one now. I have not been in a porter mood for a while. Used to be one of my favorite styles but I have not been as fond of it for, oh a couple of years. Today I had a "mood" for porter. Got a SN porter and a Stovepipe.

Stove Pipe is fantastic! Rich, chocolatey roasty with some wonderful coffee notes and the ever so slight hint of smoke. A very distinctive porter. Very enjoyable.

The rest of the beers can suck it.


:D
 
Anyone remember Magic Hat's Humble Patience? It was a beautiful, creamy porter that exuded coffee and caramel. It was one of the beers that really turned me on to craft beer, but then it disappeared. Long Trail Ale was another early revelation for me. I don't really know what happened to Magic Hat. It's fitting they have a beer called Blind Faith because that seems to be the only thing that drives their sales. BTW, can anyone taste the difference between Blind Faith and Fat Angel because I never could.

I've since moved on to lovely Oregon and beervana, but it seems Smuttynose is still going strong. I had their wheat wine when I went home for Christmas and it was top-notch as always. Plus, I noticed 3-4 new breweries in Connecticut that have opened since last time I was home 8 months ago, so New England is still going strong.
 
Well then, here is a PR opportunity for you to show some of that residual "awesome culture we inherited from Catamount"

This guy would like some help brewing a Catamount Porter clone. Care to help weigh in and offer some guidance for recreating this?

I have been talking with our brewmaster about recreating the Catamount beers, and while we can't give out the exact recipe (copywright laws and legal mumbo jumbo is the short answer explanation), he is going to help and give me suggestions for you all to ballpark them. I have a feeling that fine tuning a recipe after I get the suggestions and a couple tester batches, it will be pretty easy to make a good clone.

I should have the info by next Tuesday Jan 19th!:ban:
 
Anyone remember Magic Hat's Humble Patience? It was a beautiful, creamy porter that exuded coffee and caramel. It was one of the beers that really turned me on to craft beer, but then it disappeared. Long Trail Ale was another early revelation for me. I don't really know what happened to Magic Hat. It's fitting they have a beer called Blind Faith because that seems to be the only thing that drives their sales. BTW, can anyone taste the difference between Blind Faith and Fat Angel because I never could.

Blind Faith is also no more. They pretty much stop making anything half way decent to make room for more mass market appeal beers (#9, Circus Boy) and their clever obfuscation. They are not intersted it seems in brewing good beer. They are more about image and being hip. Beer is very low on the list of priorities at magic Sh!te.

On that note, if you do still miss their beers you will probably be seeing them in the not too distant future as they have purchased Pyramid brewing. I have heard the plan is to brew and distribute Magic Crap on the West coast and Pyramid on the East through this merger. They are lining up to be the true BMC of the craft beer world. Some folks say that about Sam Adams but at least they make mostly good beers. [/rant]
 
Blind Faith is also no more. They pretty much stop making anything half way decent to make room for more mass market appeal beers (#9, Circus Boy) and their clever obfuscation. They are not intersted it seems in brewing good beer. They are more about image and being hip. Beer is very low on the list of priorities at magic Sh!te.

On that note, if you do still miss their beers you will probably be seeing them in the not too distant future as they have purchased Pyramid brewing. I have heard the plan is to brew and distribute Magic Crap on the West coast and Pyramid on the East through this merger. They are lining up to be the true BMC of the craft beer world. Some folks say that about Sam Adams but at least they make mostly good beers. [/rant]

Isnt that kind of oxymoronic? Not trying to be a jerk, but there is a level of cynicism attached to breweries that become successful. It is a tough line to balance when larger craft breweries expand. Their beers have to appeal to a larger market, so a lot of times these styles are the ones within the lineup that are more approachable by more people. From my experience working in the industry I have just noticed that there is this dichotomy in the craft industry where you want to be successful without being too successful, otherwise your fans will turn on you. Magic Hat has some really cool offerings like their Humdinger series (a Braggot?!) but I do agree with you, Circus Boy and No. 9 are not my cup of tea.
 
I think most breweries go into decline after a while. I was at one this week and my favorite ale wasn't up to snuff. Lacked body, mouthfeel and had a citrus aftertaste. I also tried one of their seasonals and it wasn't anywhere as good as two years ago.
 
Let's not forget the HI.P.A. seasonal from Magic Hat, a very fresh, respectable beer. Honestly I was surprised to find I liked anything from Magic Hat anymore (had the same experience as the OP) but Roxy Rolles and the IPA (not Magik Kat, ech) are strong brews. The HI.P.A. is out in the stupid variety packs now, soon to be in sixes (honestly, can you really change the packaging on your 12 pack eight times a year and still include the same beers in each one??? Seperate rant altogether)

If you want to find good beers in New England, it seems you have to hunt out individual beers from all the breweries instead of subscribing to every beer from one. Sigh. At least I have a good brewpub within 45 minutes, Willimantic Brewing Company.
 
Just stumbled upon this and wanted to say thanks Glo and Zym, I'm the one looking for that Catamount Porter recipe.

I'll be anxiously awaiting any updates to that thread :D
 
Isnt that kind of oxymoronic? Not trying to be a jerk, but there is a level of cynicism attached to breweries that become successful. It is a tough line to balance when larger craft breweries expand. Their beers have to appeal to a larger market, so a lot of times these styles are the ones within the lineup that are more approachable by more people. From my experience working in the industry I have just noticed that there is this dichotomy in the craft industry where you want to be successful without being too successful, otherwise your fans will turn on you. Magic Hat has some really cool offerings like their Humdinger series (a Braggot?!) but I do agree with you, Circus Boy and No. 9 are not my cup of tea.

I appreciate your sentiment and I believe we are on the same page mostly. Allow me to clarify my sentiment. I think it is completely fine and I highly hope craft breweries become very successful. I mentioned my respect for Sam Adams. I don't love everything they do but I respect that they are committed to quality beer and the promotion of such. Sierra Nevada is everywhere and very successful, and you know what? They make AWESOME beers, there is only one I have not cared for. Stone is growing rapidly and they make excellent beers. There are many more too. I have no problem with success and widespread distribution.

I do have a problem when the image and "message" the brewery gives off is that yeah, we make beer, maybe even experiment from time to time, but clever marketing is our highest goal. Magic Crap does not give me any sense that they care about quality beer as their top priority. If they did they would offer some of their decent beers alone as six packs more often. If they did, they would offer some of those "experimental" beers like the braggot and the mild on their own in a 6 pack and not hidden in a mediocre mix pack where there may be half crappy beers (#9 and circus boy) or possible 3/4 crappy beers depending on the seasonal. I did not try either of those beers though I would have liked to, simply because I will not pay good money for a mix pack where I know I will not enjoy half of it. Also, they would not try and purposely deceive the consumer about what the beer may or may not actually be. If they had confidence in their brewers and in the intelligence of the consumer they would state clearly what style of beer they were intending not try to obfuscate with witty and nonsensical mumbo jumbo.

My point is that Magic Crap is like the big macro brewers in that they seem to pay more attention to marketing, image, and mass appeal and less to creating the best quality product they can. They are different in that they do make "craft" beer and are not making one style of bland cheap lager. They just seem to spend a lot more time and money on clever marketing. They have disappointed many folks by eliminating some good beers and holding steadfast to mediocre ones.
 
I appreciate your sentiment and I believe we are on the same page mostly. Allow me to clarify my sentiment. I think it is completely fine and I highly hope craft breweries become very successful. I mentioned my respect for Sam Adams. I don't love everything they do but I respect that they are committed to quality beer and the promotion of such. Sierra Nevada is everywhere and very successful, and you know what? They make AWESOME beers, there is only one I have not cared for. Stone is growing rapidly and they make excellent beers. There are many more too. I have no problem with success and widespread distribution.

I do have a problem when the image and "message" the brewery gives off is that yeah, we make beer, maybe even experiment from time to time, but clever marketing is our highest goal. Magic Crap does not give me any sense that they care about quality beer as their top priority. If they did they would offer some of their decent beers alone as six packs more often. If they did, they would offer some of those "experimental" beers like the braggot and the mild on their own in a 6 pack and not hidden in a mediocre mix pack where there may be half crappy beers (#9 and circus boy) or possible 3/4 crappy beers depending on the seasonal. I did not try either of those beers though I would have liked to, simply because I will not pay good money for a mix pack where I know I will not enjoy half of it. Also, they would not try and purposely deceive the consumer about what the beer may or may not actually be. If they had confidence in their brewers and in the intelligence of the consumer they would state clearly what style of beer they were intending not try to obfuscate with witty and nonsensical mumbo jumbo.

My point is that Magic Crap is like the big macro brewers in that they seem to pay more attention to marketing, image, and mass appeal and less to creating the best quality product they can. They are different in that they do make "craft" beer and are not making one style of bland cheap lager. They just seem to spend a lot more time and money on clever marketing. They have disappointed many folks by eliminating some good beers and holding steadfast to mediocre ones.

I agree with you Zy and I am supporting the other side of the debate just to play devil's advocate since I have the interesting vantage point of being able to see things from the point of view of the consumer and also from the industry side of things. I'm subscribed to a newsletter called "Beer Business Daily" that had an interesting take on branding that I believe has some credence with this discussion:

"THE IMPORTANCE OF BRANDING



AdAge ran an interesting piece by marketing guru Al Ries yesterday about the marked inability of the Big Three American carmakers to creating anything resembling a lasting brand despite the largest ad budgets of any category, spending $4.6 billion last year. From it: "It seems to me that the fundamental nature of Detroit's Japanese competition is its ability to build brands. Toyota stands for reliability, Scion for youth, Prius for hybrid, Lexus for luxury. But what does Saturn stand for? Or Chevrolet? Or Pontiac? Or Buick? Or Cadillac?....For all that money, you might think the U.S. automobile industry would have done a lot of brand building. I wonder."

I wonder too, Al. I started thinking about our major beer brands, and wondering what kind of job we're doing at building lasting brands that mean something. Because lets face it: the beer industry, unlike the wine industry and some esoteric craft styles, is all about branding. With that in mind, I began to think of what our beer brands stand for, and this is what I came up with, in no particular order:

Coors Light - Rocky Mountain cold refreshment

Bud Light - Ubiquitous, funny ads, everywhere, and okay, drinkability

Budweiser - All American lager

Mich Ultra - healthy lifestyle

Sparks - party rock-star fun

Blue Moon - cool craft you can drink more than one of

Sam Adams - father of craft beers, everywhere.

Sierra Nevada and Fat Tire - hippy chick and enviro-friendly

Yuengling - All American craft beer at premium prices.

Corona - beach vacation in a bottle

Heineken - European sophistication

Peroni - European style

Dos Equis - Spanish debonair

Tecate - lime and salt, in a can

Pabst - retro-hip and cheap

Lone Star, Old Style, Schlitz etc. - old school retro hip



You get the picture. But what is interesting is that the brands that don't have crystal clear identities that pop into your mind immediately, or their identities have been muddled over time either by the brand's size or murky marketing, are the ones that aren't growing. If you have to scratch your head to think of what a brand stands for, then it doesn't stand for anything. What does Miller Lite stand for? More taste or fewer carbs or.... we're getting into some muddy water. Heineken is European sophistication, yet you can find it in every backwoods c-store in the country. Corona is beach vacation in a bottle, but its pricing got out of whack. It seems that most brands get into trouble when they sail a little too far out from their origional core identity. Example: GM is rolling out a four-cylinder Cadillac, which is probably why it is on the brink of bankruptcy. As John Teahen, senior editor of Automotive News, wrote recently, "A four-cylinder Cadillac is not a Cadillac. I'm not quite sure what it is, but it certainly isn't a Cadillac."


You saw this when Miller Lite and Coors Light tried to make themselves into Bud Light by running funny frat-boy ads, with catfight girls and twins. Both brands suffered, until they corralled their ad agencies back to making ads about Miller Light and Coors Light, not Bud Light ads in disguise."

Now I would say that in that respect, Magic Hat has been spending an inordinate amount of time on brand development. That psychadelic laid back hippy beer branding has (IMHO) been drilled into our heads. Case in point is if you have ever been to their brewery in Burlington (read: sensory overload). I think maybe the issue is that they have been too focused on branding and less focused on what we, the beer nerds:fro: are passionate about, whats in the bottle and not what's on it.

That being said, I have gotten some info on both the Catamount Porter and Pale Ale recipes from our brewmaster. He doesn't want me to post them outright (again legal copyright mumbo jumbo) but if you want, PM me and I'll be more than happy to do my best to help you while not getting fired:D
 
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