Hybrid Fly Sparge Technique

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Recently read an article on maximizing extraction when lautering/fly sparging in a pro brewers magazine. The author suggested when draining 1st running was to let about 25% of the grain bed top show before fly sparging. Those who fly sparge might want to give this a try and see if yield changes.
 
Awesome thread! Still a noob to all grain and was getting on average 62% efficiency. After ready this, and incorporating a few of the suggestions, I bumped 17 points on my last batch. 62% to 79% in one shot! Thanks to you all
 
This got me to transition to full fly sparging since I got sick of manually recirculating. I might revisit the initial batch sparge to see if it will shave some time off my brew day.
 
I only started doing all grain about 3 years ago. The technique I've been using from the start was very similar to the original posters outline. However, there were a few times when I rushed the process by dumping in all the sparge water at once and just opened the valve all the way to drain into the brew pot. My efficiency was in the mid 60s on those occasions. But when I kept the drain valve closed a bit and really took the time to match the slow draining with the addition of clean sparge water, the efficiency was in the high 70s and once even topped 80.
 
I have been using this method to sparge on my eherms setup and am getting about 83-87% consistent efficiency and am only sparging with about 3-4 gallons on a 5.5 gallon batch... and I am using a bazoka tube in the bottom of my mashtun with a finer copper screen tube inside that... I found that by slowing the speed at which I sparge I could raise the efficiency..
My last brew was a midwest oKtoberfest kit that was supposed to be 1.064-1.066 and I got 1.075.. 4.5gallons of mash and 3 gallon sparge piumped with little 12v tan pumps turned down to where it took about 20-25 mines to sparge the 3-4 gallons and left the last gallon in the mt.
 
Ooooh that dosen't look too hard to make. Just PVC pipe? How does it attach to the spigot? You wouldn't happen to have a tutorial for that, would 'ya? :D
Does that need to be taken apart to be cleaned?
Also, it looks like you've taken the lid of your cooler off the hinges. Great idea, my lid always seems to get in the way as I mash on the kitchen counter and the cabinets get in the way.

I'd use copper. NO PVC. That is cpvc. Pvc will leach chemicals into your wort. Choc is stable at the temps of your sparge water.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app
 
This is what I do. Is there any chance of over sparging if I acidify the sparge water?
 
I'm also curious about acidifying the water & over-sparging. If you acidify the sparge water to a pH of 5.2-5.4 (at room temperature of course), is tannin extraction an issue?

I've read, from different sources, the following 3 causes of tannin extraction: temperatures above 170*F, gravity below 1.09, and pH above 6. PH and gravity would be directly related if you were using untreated water

Considering that decoction mashes apparently do not cause tannin extraction and I've read they involve boiling the grains, I suspect temperature is only an issue if pH of the water is inappropriate. Has anyone tested this?
 
I'm going to give this a shot this weekend. I need to read through the whole thread though, but from what I can tell this is going to help me with efficiency.
 
I read the original post and was hoping to get clarification on what the hybrid approach is here and why it works better and quicker than normal fly sparging.

I interpreted it to be that you open the valve a bit to let it trickle into the boil pot and then you just slowly ladle hot water or slowly pour a sauce pan in the middle to match the rate of the draining. So I'm confused on how that's different then fly sparging with say just having a tube curled around and emptying in the middle from an HLT?

Maybe I just need to read the post for a fourth time and read all the follow up comments for me to find out what's different. Not sure why I don't get it!
 
Oh maybe it's this line that I read quickly past: "No extra equipment needed"

So this is just the same as fly sparging, but using a pan/pot instead of having extra equipment to help elevate and drain into the mash tun?
 
When I converted to this simple fly sparge method I picked up 8 points in efficiency

Hi BierMuncher.

After a recent unexpected loss of efficiency I'm glad I found this thread. I have some questions, and was hoping to hear if you've changed anything in your current methods or if you could add more info about your higher than normal sparge water temperature technique . . .

- I accidently sparged using water at 168 degrees instead of my normal 175 degrees for my HERMS. But regardless of what type of system brewers have or the temperature of their strike water, when you stick a temperature probe in your grain bed what is the temperature that you are looking for that you've found results in the best efficiency while adding hot sparge water on the top of the grain bed?

- Do you wait to cover the grain bed with 1" or 2" or more of sparge water "before" you even think about starting to drain to the BK, or do you start to sparge and drain right away in equal amounts?

- Do you stop adding sparge water at a certain point knowing that if you stop right there you will approx end up with your desired pre-boil volume? Or do you keep a layer of clear sparge water on top of your grain bed the whole time until you reach your desired pre-boil volume? Reason I ask is because a local micro brewer told me they cut off their sparge water once they know they will definitely be able to reach their desired pre-boil volume. I'm not sure if they do that for efficiency or for saving water.
 
So can someone answer this question, when I reach pre boil volume in pot the mash tun will still be full of water?
 
When I converted to this simple fly sparge method I picked up 8 points in efficiency. No extra equipment needed…just a change in the method for adding / draining wort from the mash tun. This method was discussed in a recent issue of BYO, but these are my own random notes.

In both cases…the approach to the vorlauf is the same.

Difference between batch and fly.
Batch Sparging –
Uses a method of stirring and rinsing the grains several times to wash out the sugars. We drain the wort. Add more water. Stir. Drain the wort and repeat until we get our desired pre-boil volume.

Fly Sparging – Relies on a “squeegee” method of washing the sugar out of the grain bed. The grain bed may be stirred once just before sparging begins. Then the wort is drained very slowly and hot water is continually added to the top of the tun to maintain 2-3 inches of liquid over the grain bed. This hot clean water slowly pushes the sugar water down and out through the drain valve. By not stirring the grains, you are not re-suspending sugars in the grain bed and the rinse is (in theory) more complete.

Fly sparging does not require sparge arms, drip rings or other apparatus to get the desired effect. Though a hybrid approach may be somewhat less efficient than using a sparge arm…it is also much quicker. Hybrid Fly sparging is a nice compromise between the simplicity of batch sparging and the extreme efficiency of fly sparging.

Technique:

If you use a march pump to deliver your sparge water…you can adapt your system to this technique very easily.
For me…I’m a sauce pot kind of guy.

  1. Raise your sparge water to 185 degrees (we’ll save the debate for exact temps for another time).
    [*]Vorlauf your first few quarts of runoff like normal. (I advise a very slow vorlauf to prevent grain bed suction and stuck sparges)
    [*]When you’re ready…begin draining the wort very slowly into your kettle. (My valve is usually opened about 25%)
    [*]Immediately begin ladling in hot water to the top of your mash…careful not to disturb the bed of grains below the waters surface.
    [*]I usually will lay the pot into the water and then gently tip it to “fold” the water in rather than pour it.
    [*]Continue to ladle in your sparge water at the same rate it is flowing out. (You are now fly sparging).
    [*]If you need to pause to refill you hot liquor tank….simply close your valve until you are ready to resume.

A trick I like to employ is that once the kettle is filled up to my post boil level…I draw a sample…cool it and take a gravity reading. Then I continue to fill the kettle. This gives me a good reading about how aggressive I’m going to need to be with my preboil volume to hit my target OG.

Since you can’t be exact with how much runoff you’re going to have…once I get to my preboil level, I’ll drop the drain hose into a separate bucket to catch the excess. In theory, if my rinse has been effective, this excess should have little to no sugar value and can be discarded.

This process is a bit longer than a standard batch sparge. But it is substantially quicker than a full fly sparge.

A few notes:

  • Since your grain bed essentially resting longer with this method…you’ll want to adjust your rest times accordingly. My first few beers with this method were bigger than I anticipated…but the longer rest time meant they attenuated lower as well.
  • The slower you are in this process, the better your efficiency.
  • For round coolers, keeping your manifold or other device in the center of the grain bed will prevent water from finding the course of least resistance (the cooler wall), which will lower your efficiency.
  • Remember that the point here is that the clean hot water on top…is pushing down on the denser sugar water below and “plunging” it out the bottom.
Anyway. You don’t need to buy any equipment to give it a try. See if it helps your Brewhouse.

The sketch below is my terrible attempt to illustrate the effect of a hybrid fly sparge.

View attachment 7128

Here's my "bucket" in action:

[ame]

Yep. Just one steady, continual sparge. I will obviously vorlauf a few quarts for clarity, but then it's one sparge session.
 
I have come to a similar method with my 3 kettle HERMS system. I don't stir my mash bed at all, since the wort gets so clear with the recirculation, I don't want to mess with it. I call it Surge sparging. With the pump and sparge arm, I pump from the HLT fairly fast, while filling the BK with the second pump. I may slow or stop filling the BK until the sparge water covers the mash with 3" or so, then open the valve fully. I feel like that almost forces the sparge water through the grain bed. It only takes about 20 minutes to sparge about 13 gal in the BK and I'm getting better yield than Beersmith predicts.
 
What kind of false bottom are you using with your set up?
My mash tun is a sanke keg. When I cut out the top, I noticed that the cut piece fit into the bottom of the keg perfectly and the dome acts like a plenum. With a bunch of 1/16" inch holes it works perfectly. The pickup tube just goes into the keg-top hole and I pack a clean stainless steel scrubber around it. That acts as a filter too. For no cost (ok- a buck for the scrubber) I have a great false bottom. I've never had a stuck sparge, regardless of fine milling, rye malts or anything else.
 
I have come to a similar method with my 3 kettle HERMS system. I don't stir my mash bed at all, since the wort gets so clear with the recirculation, I don't want to mess with it. I call it Surge sparging. With the pump and sparge arm, I pump from the HLT fairly fast, while filling the BK with the second pump. I may slow or stop filling the BK until the sparge water covers the mash with 3" or so, then open the valve fully. I feel like that almost forces the sparge water through the grain bed. It only takes about 20 minutes to sparge about 13 gal in the BK and I'm getting better yield than Beersmith predicts.
Im surprised, usually one would suspect a stuck false bottom or in the least channeling would occur, I had the opposite results as you when started performing a maxhout and I slowed my sparging down to just under 1 gallon per minute my efficiency consistently went from averaging 88% to 91% efficiency.
 
sounds kinda what I've been doing for years...I got a round 5 gal cooler with a concave/convex? false bottom and a rotating sparge arm in the lid...

but I've just never measured any water. I just fill it until the grain is covered and let it sit and hour (I've never thought to recirculate)...After draining the mash I rinse using the sparge arm until I reached my pre boil volume.

So the top of the grain is moist but the water level was down inside the grain somewhere. I always thought you wanted the wort mostly drained to get bulk of sugars into the kettle without diluting the wort, then the sparge the remaining sugars down and out into the kettle? Guess it's really the opposite

I've never measured gravity until post boil so I guess I have no clue if I'm mashing good or wasting a lot of fermentables...time to up my game
 
I'm a little lost on how this is a hybrid technique... seems to me they're just fly sparging without a manifold, which I didn't think was required. I'm leaving my recirc hose on the top of the grainbed, it layers the HLT water fine like a tequila sunrise. The idea is to just keep 1-2" of water on the top while slowly draining the kettle over 30-45mins.

I re-read the 1st post a few times... i think i'm missing something, perhaps opening the valve 25% isn't actually slowly draining and we're really batch sparging the entire preboil volume over a shorter 5-10min period?
 
I'm a little lost on how this is a hybrid technique... seems to me they're just fly sparging without a manifold, which I didn't think was required. I'm leaving my recirc hose on the top of the grainbed, it layers the HLT water fine like a tequila sunrise. The idea is to just keep 1-2" of water on the top while slowly draining the kettle over 30-45mins.

I re-read the 1st post a few times... i think i'm missing something, perhaps opening the valve 25% isn't actually slowly draining and we're really batch sparging the entire preboil volume over a shorter 5-10min period?
what hes sayingin the original post is to drain the mt till the top 25% of the grainbed is up out of the liquid and draining and then add the fresh sparge water,which would trickle through at first rinsing the grain.
This would help sparging efficiency a bit regardless of any possible negative effects. (tannins )
 
Thanks.... that clears it up. I've done that several times on accident, don't think my eff was affected either way but didn't actually notate it so i can't review the OG vs expected.
 
After visiting some threads regarding batch sparging... I feel this is more like draining the tun before doing a batch step.

I'd be curious the eff difference between this method of draining 25% then fly sparging the rest vs a batch sparge where you drain completely then add sparge/stir/drain. I'm thinking I can shave some time off my brew day by batch sparing in a similar method so i can get my element covered quicker and turn the power the BK.
 
This past weekend, during Big Brew Day, I did a "hybrid" fly sparge while doing a double batch in my 10gal cooler mash tun. We were brewing at our local brewery, so we had 180* water on tap. I just used a pitcher and a colander to diffuse the water. It took a bit longer than my typical batch sparge, but I got 80% efficiency compared to my usual 73%.
 
Yeah, i'm still not 100% sure why this isn't just poor attempt at fly sparging... I feel it's the same process except you're draining the water below the grain bed first and running off faster (25% open valve, i assume it takes shorter than 30mins).

I guess it's a good compromise if you want more efficiency than batch sparging and have some time to waste, but not enough time to proper fly sparge (15min maybe?)

maybe someone can help me out, i feel like i'm really missing the point. It looks to me like the valve is open 25% so we're running off faster than a normal sparge; and the water level is allowed to go below grain level I guess so we can try and get the initial high gravity runnings out first like a batch sparge.

@RockyMtnGT, when you would batch sparge at 73% did you drain your MLT first and then send over teh sparge water and drain again? When you did the recent hybrid method and got 80% how long did you "fly sparge" for? and did you keep the water level above grain?
 
Yeah, i'm still not 100% sure why this isn't just poor attempt at fly sparging... I feel it's the same process except you're draining the water below the grain bed first and running off faster (25% open valve, i assume it takes shorter than 30mins).

I guess it's a good compromise if you want more efficiency than batch sparging and have some time to waste, but not enough time to proper fly sparge (15min maybe?)

maybe someone can help me out, i feel like i'm really missing the point. It looks to me like the valve is open 25% so we're running off faster than a normal sparge; and the water level is allowed to go below grain level I guess so we can try and get the initial high gravity runnings out first like a batch sparge.

@RockyMtnGT, when you would batch sparge at 73% did you drain your MLT first and then send over teh sparge water and drain again? When you did the recent hybrid method and got 80% how long did you "fly sparge" for? and did you keep the water level above grain?

When I batch sparge, I completely drain the MLT, then add the full volume of 185*+ sparge water, stir and let set for 15 minutes, then drain. For my "hybrid" fly sparge, I still took about 45 minutes to do the full sparge and did keep the water above the grain bed. I was nowhere near 25% open. Now, I did not do a mash out to bring the grain bed up to 168*, I just gave it a good stir, performed the vorlauf, then started sparging with 180* water. Because of this, I am pretty sure I produced more fermentable sugar so the beer is going to be a little drier. Its a blonde and I am adding fruit to it, so it should be fine.
 
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