adding LME the last 20 minutes

This come across on another thread, but I've heard about this technique somewhere else. Does adding your LME the last 20 minutes do anything to the brew? Doesn't it need to be boiled for at least an hour? Won't the chemistry be different somehow?

It lets you make lighter colored beer because you do not boil as long. Less boiling time reduces the caramelization(Sp?).

You only really have to boil for a short period of time just to kill any bacteria in the malt extract. I would at least boil the malt extract for 10-15 mins. to make sure it is sanitized.

It'll reduce the caramelization, resulting in a lighter-colored beer. For sanitation, you only need to boil for fifteen or twenty minutes. The other reason for boiling the wort is to get a hot break, but that's less an issue with extract (which I believe has had most of the break removed during the manufacturing process, at least according to the interview I heard recently).

Since your hops will be boiled for most of the time in a lower-gravity wort, utilization will be higher.

I've been doing a late-extract addition to my most recent batches (both partial/mostly-mash). I'm using DME, but the same factors apply to LME.

Ol' Grog said:

This come across on another thread, but I've heard about this technique somewhere else. Does adding your LME the last 20 minutes do anything to the brew? Doesn't it need to be boiled for at least an hour? Won't the chemistry be different somehow?

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You really only need to boil the extract long enough to sanitize it, so 15 minutes should be plenty. (Actually, canned extract should already be sanitary, so you technically don't need to boil it at all.... This is the philosophy behind the 'no-boil' pre-hopped extracts - just add water and yeast!)

But... addint the extract late will change a few things:

(1) the beer will be lighter in color. The longer you boil it, the more the sugars caramalize, and the darker it gets.

(2) bittering hops that are put into the kettle before the extract is added will see their utilization will go way up. Hop utilization is a function of the liquid's density; the thicker the liquid, the less utilization.

-walker

So, it's got nothing to do with the brewing chemical magic? I mean, I can understand hops utilization. But, there is no affect on taste when the LME and hops are boiling around in the pot for about an hour? It's just going to change color? Then why the hour boils with extracts???

Nope....no magical chemical reactions. So to speak. Basically you boil the oils out of the hops. The longer you boil the hops the more bitter they become. That is a magical chemical reaction, you need to use 50% less bittering hops if you add extract late, so that your brew will not be too bitter.

Too bitter? What? Huh? I don't get it - what is this "too bitter" of which you speak?

For reference, here's the BYO article concerning late extract in a few different forms.
Some chemistry discussion, but maybe not the depth you're looking for.

Bazing!

Walker and the_bird already answered the flavor question. The longer you boil your extract the more caramelization you'll get (a good thing in some beers), but again you're worried about hop utilization, so you'll only be concentrated boiling for darker less hoppy beers.

I can't answer why there's a consistent 60 minute boil on almost every extract recipe. (good question...)

dougjones31 said:

Nope....no magical chemical reactions. So to speak. Basically you boil the oils out of the hops. The longer you boil the hops the more bitter they become. That is a magical chemical reaction, you need to use 50% less bittering hops if you add extract late, so that your brew will not be too bitter.

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Is that true? I thought you added the same hops as the recipe calls for, and with late extract your utilization is closer to "normal" than with straight concentrated boil? My impression being that without late extract you will typically be getting less of the bittering hops you were hoping for.

Somewhere I read, it might have been that BYO article, that the hops will utilize 75% of their oils within the first 30 minutes of boiling......so YOU know what I was thinking? Cut your 60 minute boils to half! Boil water, toss the hops, with about 10 to go, throw in the LME and the finishing hops. Since your not going to get full utilization of the hops, then adding the LME late, should almost balance out.

Hops utilization is way better into thinner liquids. So if you boil hops in water only you will get more of the oils out of the hops than you would by boiling in water with malt extract dissolved into it.

Less bonding sites left when the malt extract is there to bond to the water.

Some say that if you boil just the hops in water, you can get "grassy" flavors. It has been suggested that you add about a third of your extract with the hops for the full 60 minutes, then add the rest during the last 15 minutes. I don't know if this is true or not.
This is how I did my Burning River clone and WOW it came out hoppy...as it should be. :rockin:

I've only had grassy flavors from dry hopping. Boiling hops in water for 30 minutes will give you about the utilization that 60 minutes in a 1.050 wort would. If I'm doing an extract and I'm in a hurry, I'll put the specialty grains in one pot @ 170F, bring 2 gallons of water to a boil & add the bittering hops @ 30 min. At 10 minutes add the wort from the grains, the extract and the aroma hops. I've done a few batches this way and it works fine.

Great thing about this hobby is, there are many ways to make good beer.

Am I getting confused with "hoppy" and "bitter" ??
Sooooooo, what if you steeped the grains, brought up to boil and toss in the bittering hops for 30 minutes. Then flame out, stir in the LME or DME and save the flavoring hops for dry hopping in the secondary for one week? BIG changes or not really?

Ol' Grog said:

Am I getting confused with "hoppy" and "bitter" ??
Sooooooo, what if you steeped the grains, brought up to boil and toss in the bittering hops for 30 minutes. Then flame out, stir in the LME or DME and save the flavoring hops for dry hopping in the secondary for one week? BIG changes or not really?

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Sorry, I should have said my Burning River came out hoppy and bitter...as it should be. I need to remind myself that there is a difference.

As for your question, I'll have to let someone more experienced than me answer. I think you still get some bitterness from the flavoring hops but mostly flavor. I also think dry hopping gives you mostly aroma and some perceived flavor.

add extract 15 mins before flame-out. it needs time to sanitize.

But don't they come already sterilized?

LME in the can is should be sterilized but if you get it measured off in a bucket it won't be sterile.

Also, you will get very little or no taste from dry hopping, you mostly get aroma from dry hopping.

Engelramm said:

Some say that if you boil just the hops in water, you can get "grassy" flavors. It has been suggested that you add about a third of your extract with the hops for the full 60 minutes, then add the rest during the last 15 minutes. I don't know if this is true or not.
This is how I did my Burning River clone and WOW it came out hoppy...as it should be. :rockin:

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I boiled hops in water before and the house smelled like we've been smoking weed all day...I'm just glad the cops never came by.

homebrewer_99 said:

I boiled hops in water before and the house smelled like we've been smoking weed all day...I'm just glad the cops never came by.

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Yikes! I'll remember that.

homebrewer_99 said:

I boiled hops in water before and the house smelled like we've been smoking weed all day...I'm just glad the cops never came by.

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honest mom. I just forgot to add the malt before I started boiling the hops.

homebrewer_99 said:

I boiled hops in water before and the house smelled like we've been smoking weed all day...I'm just glad the cops never came by.

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Why......? You should remember that the next time you want to sit around and smoke weed all day. Put on a pot of water and boil some hops....if the cops come then just let them smell the boiling hops and say that is where the smell is coming from.:rockin:

homebrewer_99 said:

I boiled hops in water before and the house smelled like we've been smoking weed all day...I'm just glad the cops never came by.

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Hmm.. I'm thinking of a new million dollar idea now:

Boiling Hop Scented Air Freshener!

This past weekend I bought a vaccuum sealer appliance and measured and sealed up several pounds of hops I got from Freshhops.com. Me and several friends in assembly line fashion weighing and bagging pounds of bright green plant matter. I wonder what the nighbors would have thought?!?

Chris_K said:

Is that true? I thought you added the same hops as the recipe calls for, and with late extract your utilization is closer to "normal" than with straight concentrated boil? My impression being that without late extract you will typically be getting less of the bittering hops you were hoping for.

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I think I got into some trouble with this. An extract recipe kit for a warrior pale ale called for a 2-3 gallon boil and said to add LME after steeping the grains, then add bittering hops.

Well, I did a full boil, steeped the grains, added my hops and waiting until T minus 20 minutes to add the LME. I think I overdosed the bittering two fold because the hop amount was accounting for 2-3 gallons of thick wort when I hopped in low gravity water basically.

I might have to brew a sweet batch and do a sweet/bitter pour (black and tan style) in order to get a balance.

BrewmanBeing said:

This past weekend I bought a vaccuum sealer appliance and measured and sealed up several pounds of hops I got from Freshhops.com. Me and several friends in assembly line fashion weighing and bagging pounds of bright green plant matter. I wonder what the nighbors would have thought?!?

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I do the same thing...sure looks illegal, huh?

re: vaccuum sealing hops: Is it enough or do I need special oxygen barrier bags?

IMO, I don't see any reason because we keep them in the freezer most of the time. HBS get them shipped same as we do. Aren't they going from warm to cold to warm to cold when we get them? Once we split them they stay cold.

homebrewer_99 said:

IMO, I don't see any reason because we keep them in the freezer most of the time. HBS get them shipped same as we do. Aren't they going from warm to cold to warm to cold when we get them? Once we split them they stay cold.

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Makes sense. Also, if oxygen were permeating the bags wouldn't they lose their seal? I think vaccum sealed, airtight and frozen is about as good as it gets. I also weighed out and sealed various freshly crushed specialty grains that are in the freezer with the hops. I figure I have a good 5 or so recipes worth of ingredients to choose from and can brew whenever I feel like it now.

How do I store LME? It's in containers filled by the LHBS guy so not sterile. How long until they go bad at room temps?

I haven't used LME since '94. Always starts off too dark for the style, unless it's a stout...