i'm judging by taste. admittedly, i have only used the carafa II, but i've used it alot. i thought the only difference between the carafa were color, and of course roastiness if used in large quantity.
Cold steep dark grains?
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i'm judging by taste. admittedly, i have only used the carafa II, but i've used it alot. i thought the only difference between the carafa were color, and of course roastiness if used in large quantity.
remilard
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I've never tried them side by side or subbed one for the other in a recipe (that I remember), probably worth a try.
srm775, this is going to be my last post on this 'cause you're clearly taking my statements out of context and responding with vague generalities about homebrewing. I feel like I'm watching a bad Daily Show interview...
Then you responded that you do get extract efficiency from cold steeping and I showed you the enzyme activity chart which clearly shows you don't. The bottom line is you get < 1% efficiency from cold steeping malted barley. This is the tradeoff of which I spoke; not some vague generality about homebrewing.
Moving on...
Agree, I feel as though you keep making one statement regarding cold-steeping (without ever having even tried it) and I'm making another. So, let's put it this way:
How much fermentable sugar do you think you're going to get from a chocolate malt, roasted barley or black patent? Very little, because there is very little fermentable sugar in those dark malts. That is my point. Therefore, you loss in efficiency is negligable. That is my point.
Now, that being said, would I use cold steeping for a porter or mild brown that has just a .5 lbs of roasted barley? No, this is typically a brewing method used for bigger stouts with a significant grain bill of chocolate malt, roasted barley and/or black patent.
I'll just add a comment in reference to roasted barley only. Since this grain is not malted prior to roasting, it has very little soluble sugar in it and the starch is non-soluble and in a form that is notreadily broken down by the various malt enzymes. If you try an iodine test on un-malated barley that is crushed and then extracted you get no reaction - I did the test. Now take that and roast it and the what is left is not going to be very convertable by enzymes in a mash.
All the roasted malts must add at least some gravity points to a finished product. Anything that is dissolved in a liquid will add gravity points. The black color of the beer is soluble (otherwise it would precipitate over time) so it must add some gravity points. I suspect though that this is negligible. There might be other compounds produced during roasting that might also contribute some gravity points, but again I doubt they are either convertable in a mash or fermentable by the yeast.
I see no reason not to cold-steep. It will just take longer to extract the flavors. Since there are no active enzymes in roasted malts, all adding heat does is to speed up the reaction. It does not do anything that wouldn't also happen at 70 F. As an analogy, imagine dissolving a lollipop in a glass of water. It will take a while at room temp, but if you add heat it will happen much quicker - but the end product is exactly the same. The trick is how long - since it is not easy to see like dissolving a lollipop. I bet one could take taste samples over time to monitor the change
All the roasted malts must add at least some gravity points to a finished product. Anything that is dissolved in a liquid will add gravity points. The black color of the beer is soluble (otherwise it would precipitate over time) so it must add some gravity points. I suspect though that this is negligible. There might be other compounds produced during roasting that might also contribute some gravity points, but again I doubt they are either convertable in a mash or fermentable by the yeast.
I see no reason not to cold-steep. It will just take longer to extract the flavors. Since there are no active enzymes in roasted malts, all adding heat does is to speed up the reaction. It does not do anything that wouldn't also happen at 70 F. As an analogy, imagine dissolving a lollipop in a glass of water. It will take a while at room temp, but if you add heat it will happen much quicker - but the end product is exactly the same. The trick is how long - since it is not easy to see like dissolving a lollipop. I bet one could take taste samples over time to monitor the change
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
It's about gravity contribution, not just fermentable sugar. Roasted malts are loaded with sugars, most of which are unfermentable, and contain no enzymes. But, to access those sugars, you have to mash roasted malts with base grains. This step is not performed in cold steeping.
Chocolate malt has an extract potential of ~34. So does black patent malt. But, you have to mash the malt to see any of the potential. This was the message I kept repeating yesterday.
Agreed. I stated that I would be willing to try the cold steeping method for color in something like a red ale that called for a few ounces of chocolate malt. Debittered black malt is too dark, otherwise I would just use it.
As an aside, I do use cold steeping when I make coffee porters to get a really smooth coffee flavor. But, that's using coffee beans which have an extract potential of zero.
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
I think the confusion is about steeping vs. mashing. If I may...
If you hot mash/steep just chocolate malt (no other grain), then you have an extract potential of zero since chocolate malt has zero enzymes.
If you hot mash/steep chocolate malt with a base grain, then the extract potential for the chocolate malt is ~34.
If you cold steep chocolate malt with or without a base grain, then the extract potential is zero because the temperature is not high enough for any starch conversion to occur, period.
Shawn Hargreaves
Well-Known Member
I just created a test recipe with nothing but 5 lb of one specialty grain, and looked at the estimated OG and FG. The ratio between these is different depending on what grain you pick, so it must be doing something grain specific in the calculation!
I'm really surprised I can find so little info about this! The malt manufacturers publish a lot of technical data about their products, but what percentage of the extract is fermentable does not appear to be part of this.
Of course it would be easy enough to do a practical experiment to find out. Just a few cups in a jamjar with some leftover yeast should be enough to get some real world measurements.
I bet we'd have to include some regular malt as well as the extract to make this really valid though. If we tried to ferment just roast or crystal malt in isolation, it's possible there could be what would normally be fermentable sugars that did not ferment due to lack of other nutrients, etc. So we'd have to boil a larger quantity of base malt, ferment some of that as a control, then add crystal, roast, etc, to other portions to see what happened to those.
i've made several dunkelweizens with carafa II and with chocolate malt using the same base recipe. distinctly different flavors. even when using 6 oz of carafa II (as appose to the usual 4 oz of chocolate i use) it gives very little flavor and it is not chocolately in the least, more roasty.
As I stated in my first post in this thread. THERE IS STARCH CONVERSION AT ROOM TEMP, though it certainly is not as fast as at std. mashing temps. If this were not the case, no barley seed would ever germinate as all of the ezymes we take advantage of in brewing are ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for germination. When they produce malt, they incubate the barley at 50-70 F. I can guarantee you that starch conversion is happening during this process.
Here is the protocol for a std. commercial amylase activity assay. Incubation is at room temperature.
α-Amylase (enzymatic)
Sorry for the yelling, being a scientist, I try to keep the facts straight and prevent scientific mis-information from becoming common knowledge
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
Ha, no offense taken. I'm an engineer by trade, so I'm quite comfortable with being wrong on occasion.
Just keep in mind that roasted malts at kilned at a very high temperature and thus have no enzymes available for starch conversion.
So, I'll revise my statement to say "the starch conversion process is slow enough at room temperature to be impractical for brewing". Better?
So, I'll revise my statement to say "the starch conversion process is slow enough at room temperature to be impractical for brewing". Better?
That works......although.....if one steeped for 24 hours, I'm pretty sure there would be some conversion. I've been tempted to do an experimental brew with a mash at room temp (time still undecided) followed by what I'll call a full decocotion (boil the whole dang thing, grains and all) with hop additions, and then chill and to the carboy. Sort of like a Berliner-weisse. I'll just have to watch the souring during the mash. I might add some K-sorbate and metabisulfite (as per wine makers) to slow the lactobacillus down. Oh yeah, it would only be a 2 gal batch lest it go terribly wrong
I actually find it quite remarkable that these enzymes work at all at mashing temps. Most enzymes in animals are not very happy at all at temperatures over 110F or under 90F. They're total wusses. Now with plants, their enzymes will work from under 32F to up to 170F. That's just cool, and is part why I chose to become a plant scientist, not an animal scientist, plus I often get to eat my leftover scientific subjects!
you'll just have to try it for yourself!
Freezeblade
Well-Known Member
Dude, this whole thread is like a big shaggy dog story. I kept going for 6 pages to see who was right (what the punchline is) only to get a "well, you'll have to try it" which is the equilivent to a super lame punchline after a 30 min story-joke.
lamarguy
Well-Known Member
Nice. I like dogs and I like stories...
Will cold steeping roasted grain hurt anything? Probably not, other than extract efficiency. Will it help avoid acrid roasted flavors from creeping into your brew? Maybe, maybe not. You decide!
so uh... what's the bottom line. man, i was hoping for some payoff after 6 pages.
What kind of payoff are you looking for? Try it and see. Brew two stouts side-by-side. One where you mash the dark grains and one where you cold-steep the grains and see which you like best.
Personally, for my oatmeal stouts, I prefer to cold-steep my dark grains. The flavor is much smoother and it makes a better beer, which what we're all after.
be sure to post your results. we'll never figure this out if you don't
Is there any merit to using the cold steeped infusion as an initial strike water in the mash? Another words, would the astringincy still appear by heating the infused water, or is the astringincy from heating the grains? I am curious because you might get good flavor results by converting what is extracted in the cold steep. I am wondering if the cold steep extracts anything that needs (could benifit from) conversion.
And I am also resurecting this thread
And I am also resurecting this thread
be sure to post your results. we'll never figure this out if you don't
For anyone doing research: I cold steeped 8 oz of Carafa Special III in 2 L of water over 24 hours in the fridge. The fridge cold liquid had a gravity of 1.030, which is not surprising as roasted grains don't need enzymatic activity to extract sugars as the roasting has made them accessible to be water soluble. The liquid had a slight roasty taste to it, but not much. I boiled it and added it to a Schwarzbier.
altimate_one
Active Member
I'm sure there have been a TON of experiments on this subject since the last post. I am very excited to see what the experts say now.
In addition, is it worthwhile to cold steep some (say 75%) of your roasted grain bill and then use the remaining 25% in the mash to get a more complex taste in your beer?
In addition, is it worthwhile to cold steep some (say 75%) of your roasted grain bill and then use the remaining 25% in the mash to get a more complex taste in your beer?
JollyregoR
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I've been using this method for over a year now and I really like the results. I find it gives me a rounder more rich character to the brews I use it in. When I used to mash my dark grains I always felt it had a bit of a harshness to it. Now I cold steep the day before a brew day than add it to the kettle in the last 5 min.
Another great use for it is to add it to a Black IPA or CDA or whatever you to call it. I always do 10gallon batches and split it into 2, 6gallon carboys then ferment with different yeast and/or dry hops and you could also have a Black IPA and a regular IPA by adding the cold seeped dark grain liquid into one of the carboys. It would work with all kinds of styles brew an amber in one and porter in the other etc. Two very different beers one brew day!
Another great use for it is to add it to a Black IPA or CDA or whatever you to call it. I always do 10gallon batches and split it into 2, 6gallon carboys then ferment with different yeast and/or dry hops and you could also have a Black IPA and a regular IPA by adding the cold seeped dark grain liquid into one of the carboys. It would work with all kinds of styles brew an amber in one and porter in the other etc. Two very different beers one brew day!
I've primary fermented an imperial porter but noticed there was the chocolaty flavors coming out like I expected.
I've read you can cold steep, then add it post-fermentation. Can't really find too much info on that particular method though.
Seems quite harmless but not sure if I should boil to sanitize after the cold steep and before adding to the fermenter.
Anybody, any thoughts?
I've read you can cold steep, then add it post-fermentation. Can't really find too much info on that particular method though.
Seems quite harmless but not sure if I should boil to sanitize after the cold steep and before adding to the fermenter.
Anybody, any thoughts?
JollyregoR
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I'm no microbiologist but I think should definitely sanitize the cold steeped liquid before you add it to the fermenter. Myself I put it in a pot on the stove until it reaches 150° then put the lid on and let it cool. Essentially pasteurizing the liquid. You could boil it but you might loose some of the flavors and it might get some astringency your trying to avoid with this method. I think if you add it straight to the fermenter you'd potentially get an infection due to the wild yeast that's naturally on the grain.
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