Need help with my electrical diagram!!!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Gabrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
377
Reaction score
3
Location
Montreal
Hey Guys,

So im in the process of putting together a eHerms system. My kegs themselves are pretty much done, now its time to put together the electronics. Ive purchased most of the stuff but would like to get some feedback on this circuit before I actually begin.

This is a mix of TiberBrew and Kals posts...so a big thanks goes out to them and others who have helped along the way!

Circuit
CIRCUIT1.jpg


****The red arrows are junctions which I am not confident about. Can these join or should they individually reach the BUS...???

Front Panel
front-1.jpg


Bottom Panel
bottom-1.png


Thanks!

Gabrew
 
Random question... is your MLT PID controller connecting to anything? Also what is the purpose of having the SSR go into the contactor?
 
The PID is only serves as a digital temp reader..there in case I ever choose to move onto a RIMS or any future changes/projects...

As for the ssr to the contactor...I>m not sure of the exact reason but this is the configuration I have seen on several similar circuits...
 
Please allow me to weigh in on this.

CIRCUIT1a.jpg


Item #1 - This appears to be a key switch. What is your understanding of the purpose of this? This is a vital question.

Item #2 - You illustrate the element outlets as 3 wire units (phase 1, phase 2 and equipment ground) but you are running a neutral to them as well.

P-J
 
Hey P-J

(hope you dont mind the fact that I frankensteined your diagram....)

#1: I really wasnt sure about that one. Basically I want a kill switch. Something that can be turned off between sessions.

#2: definately right! Its a three wire...thus I should remove the neutral...

Thanks!

Anythign else?
 
I do not mind at all. I'm glad that it provides some help to you.

Please let me explain the intent of item #1 on Tiber's diagram. It is indeed a kill switch. It is setup as an Emergency Power Off and its function is absolutely dependent on having a GFCI mains breaker in your mains panel. There are 2 resistors in series with the switch that limit the current draw to 0.06 amps from line 2 to equipment ground. This leakage current will trip the GFCI instantly. BTW, I would not use a key switch. It should be a momentary contact - push button switch.

One other thing - You show a 3 position switch that controls the contactors for the heating elements. Based on the switch, you will be running only one element or the other at any given time. If this is the case, there is no need for 2 - 240V circuit breakers. One is more than adaquate.

As far as the SSR outputs feeding the contactors - this is done to remove all voltage from the kettles when power is not required. It is another huge safety requirement.

If I can be of any help to you, please let me know. When you get your layout close to what you want, I'd be glad to draw a final diagram for you.
 
Hey P-J

(hope you dont mind the fact that I frankensteined your diagram....)

#1: I really wasnt sure about that one. Basically I want a kill switch. Something that can be turned off between sessions.

#2: definately right! Its a three wire...thus I should remove the neutral...

Thanks!

Anythign else?

#1 seems like it wouldn't work as it is wired. I think it would just blow the fuse (as it shorts hot to ground). I think what you would want is a DPST key switch and connect the red and blue through each of the poles.
 
I do not mind at all. I'm glad that it provides some help to you.

Please let me explain the intent of item #1 on Tiber's diagram. It is indeed a kill switch. It is setup as an Emergency Power Off and its function is absolutely dependent on having a GFCI mains breaker in your mains panel. There are 2 resistors in series with the switch that limit the current draw to 0.06 amps from line 2 to equipment ground. This leakage current will trip the GFCI instantly. BTW, I would not use a key switch. It should be a mementary contact - push button switch. So if I use a 50amp breaker in the main and add the two resistors in series with the Line2, there should be a problem? Also, the reason for the key switch is that the system will be set in my step-dads garage (since I live in an apartment while Im in college) and the place often has kids running around...just thought it was an extra precaution...

One other thing - You show a 3 position switch that controls the contactors for the heating elements. Based on the switch, you will be running only one element or the other at any given time. If this is the case, there is no need for 2 - 240V circuit breakers. One is more than adaquate. I would much prefer having the posibility of using both elements at the same time, just thought that this would cause an overload. So if I were to use to selector switches as in Tibers diagram, I shouldnt have any problems?

As far as the SSR outputs feeding the contactors - this is done to remove all voltage from the kettles when power is not required. It is another huge safety requirement. good to know! Thanks!

If I can be of any help to you, please let me know. When you get your layout close to what you want, I'd be glad to draw a final diagram for you.

This is EXTREMELY generous of you...really appreciated!
 
#1 seems like it wouldn't work as it is wired. I think it would just blow the fuse (as it shorts hot to ground). I think what you would want is a DPST key switch and connect the red and blue through each of the poles.

that does sound much better that what I have suggested!
 
Ok. If you use a 50 amp mains GFCI breaker you can run both elements at the same time. You would be close using 2 - 5500W elements but would have a reasonable margin using a 4500W and a 5500W element. This would be more than adaquate. As far as a kids lockout - I'd use one more contactor to kill the mains power in your brew controller. Use the key switch to lockout the contactor and prevent the controller from powering up..
 
I am designing mine as well. I will have a 50A breaker in my main feeding a 50A GFCI spa panel that feeds my control enclosure. For kids lock out I will be powering off both the main breaker and the spa panel breaker with a padlock on the sub panel. Then for the system I'll have an E-Stop. When the E-Stop is depressed it has to be reset by pulling it out again. The wiring for the E-Stop is well documented in Ohio-Ed's post here.

It may be a little more work to flip 2 breakers and lock the sub panel, but to me it's worth it. Also the E-Stop allows you to power down the entire business with the slap of a button in case of an emergency during a brew.

Good luck!
 
FYI I looked through the Digikey catalog for a keylock. It seems that they don't make one large enough for your current draw. If you want the keylock I would suggest using a SPST keylock connected to contactors. You could then also build an E-Stop button into it by running the line to the contactors through it. Does that make sense? or you want me to sketch it?
 
That is a whole bunch of pages and posts to wade through to find the info you suggest. (33 pages - 325 posts)

Just saying...

True, but if Gabrew isn't comfortable with his wiring diagram, which I'm guessing he's not since he's requesting info, this is one of the best threads out there, lots of good info especially in the first 100 posts or so. The E-Stop starts around post #68.

Ohio-Ed's final drawing (I think final) drawing is on post 204, the E-stop is at the very top. The rest may or may not apply for Gabrew.


Gabrew, you should also read through CodeRages sticky electrical primer, there's info on the E-Stop in there too.


Brew On!!
 
Awesome guys!

Thanks once again for the great input!

Ive thought about it and will probably go with a simple e-stop or nothing at all and simply lock the breaker themselves once Im done!

Ive rechecked my diagram with my pops and he suggested that:

-there only be one hot line running through the indicator lights for the elements, if not they will blow.
-He also suggested that there be a neutral running from all indicator lights.

Can anyone validate this please??

Thanks!

Gabrew
 
Are your indicator lights 120V? I presume they are, so you should have one hot and one neutral fed to each. You can daisy chain the neutral to all the lights.

By the way, my kill switch is a momentary normally open button switch. That works perfectly for the GFCI method that P-J described.

TB
 
Thanks TB

So heres an update with what Ive learned (thanks to you guys). Please let me know what you think!!!

CIRCUIT2.jpg


Gabrew
 
Looks pretty good to me. I am not really sure that I personally like the idea of relying on a GFCI for the E-Stop. Personally what I would do is put a double pole contactor across the incoming lines and have the E-Stop cut the coil current when it is pushed. But again this is my personal opinion.

Thanks TB

So heres an update with what Ive learned (thanks to you guys). Please let me know what you think!!!

CIRCUIT2.jpg


Gabrew
 
At first glance, that looks good. I will take a closer look when I get home.

Do you have room in your enclosure for a third SSR & contractor? Or is the MLT PID dedicated only to monitoring mash temps, not controlling?

Looking forward to seeing your CP build.

TB
 
At first glance, that looks good. I will take a closer look when I get home.

Do you have room in your enclosure for a third SSR & contractor? Or is the MLT PID dedicated only to monitoring mash temps, not controlling?

Looking forward to seeing your CP build.

TB

I do have room (at least I think I do) but the MLT PID is solely for monitoring temperature. Thanks for taking the time!
 
Looks pretty good to me. I am not really sure that I personally like the idea of relying on a GFCI for the E-Stop. Personally what I would do is put a double pole contactor across the incoming lines and have the E-Stop cut the coil current when it is pushed. But again this is my personal opinion.

That does sound safer...or at least more direct! Ill have to check it out...

Thansk!
 
That does sound safer...or at least more direct! Ill have to check it out...

Thansk!

Look at Ohio-Eds design. Basically you have a E-Stop with 120V running through it. The 120V line connects to a DPST contactor with a 120V coil. The E-Stop line will energize the coil of the contactor thus connecting the two 120V lines to your system. If you push the E-Stop it denergizes the coil and cuts the power.... Ohio-Ed did basically that except he also added a "power-up" button. Basically the power up button powers another relay which in turn powers its own coil and the contactor coil.... so to turn the system on you disable the E-Stop and then push the start button.... I think it is a safer approach. If you get any ground leakage the GFCI will still fault, but it is really serving its intended purpose and not as a E-Stop.

Let me know if you have any questions.
 
My thought on that is this: if you're going to rely on the GFCI to save your life anyway, why not use it for a kill switch? You should be testing your GFCI periodically anyway, and if it works, your kill switch will work, cutting power furthest upstream of your power source possible. If it doesn't work, you shouldn't be brewing with it until it's fixed.

There's nothing wrong with the other method as well, so the choice is yours.

TB
 
My thought on that is this: if you're going to rely on the GFCI to save your life anyway, why not use it for a kill switch? You should be testing your GFCI periodically anyway, and if it works, your kill switch will work, cutting power furthest upstream of your power source possible. If it doesn't work, you shouldn't be brewing with it until it's fixed.

There's nothing wrong with the other method as well, so the choice is yours.

TB

Agreed you could just rely on the GFCI for your E-Stop, but I like the idea of having the E-Stop not just for electrical emergency, but any emergency. I'm using motorized ball valves that are normally closed unless enegrized. If for some reason I spring a leak or anything goes haywire I can kill the power for the entire unit.
 
Agreed you could just rely on the GFCI for your E-Stop, but I like the idea of having the E-Stop not just for electrical emergency, but any emergency. I'm using motorized ball valves that are normally closed unless enegrized. If for some reason I spring a leak or anything goes haywire I can kill the power for the entire unit.

And you can do exactly that by tripping the GFCI. When I hit my kill switch, the GFCI kills all power to my system, including pumps. If your valves are normally closed, and open when energized, then a GFCI trip will close them back up if you hit the kill switch.

Again, nothing wrong with the other method; they both ultimately accomplish the same objective.

TB
 
Would you happen to have a close-up pic of your kill switch wiring (including the fuse and resistors?)

Thanks!

I can try getting a better shot when I get home, but there are a few shots of my wiring in my build thread. I'm posting from my phone, else I'd provide a link for ya. Perhaps someone will spot me a link...?

TB
 
I'll most probably be using this method for my E-Stop...

any advice on where to get 50amp GFI breaker for cheap? I've seen these spa panels with the breaker included for 120-130$...is this reasonable?

Thanks again!
 
Gabrew,

Lowe's has them for a lot less than that. Check This Link $70.00

I know, I know... Canada. However if you cannot find something more reasonable there we can work this out. I'll get it and ship it to you. We just need to be absolutely sure about your breaker panel so that whatever breaker is secured will fit your mains panel.
 
Depot is cheaper at least in Ohio. Lowes is 110 depot is 70 for 60 a can't remember what 50 was.
 
The E-Stop circuit in my panel is also the primary on/off switch.
I don't think I'd want to go to the panel to reset a breaker to energize the system every time I turned it off. Also, I have my BCS powered from in front of the contactor (it shares a breaker with the e-stop relay circuit) so it doesn't lose power when the panel is off. Personally, I'm not comfortable with tripping the GFCI as an E-Stop but I applaud any efforts folks take to build safety into their system.

Ed
 
Well - 'E-Stop' stands for Emergency Stop. It is designed (In my diagrams) as such. It is not intended to be used for normal power up/down for the system. It is intended to KILL all power to the rig in an emergency situation.

I truly respect your situation and opinion. I'm not dissing you. Please understand that.
 
...Personally, I'm not comfortable with tripping the GFCI as an E-Stop...

Ed

Can you explain why?

Is that specifically for your setup, or in general?

I'm not trying to gang up on you, but I think we should know why exactly you're not comfortable with that, for the sake of everyone reading this thread.

Thanks,
TB
 
Can you explain why?

Is that specifically for your setup, or in general?

I'm not trying to gang up on you, but I think we should know why exactly you're not comfortable with that, for the sake of everyone reading this thread.

Thanks,
TB

I've been around a lot of equipment with built in Emergency Stops (E-Stops), and don't remember any that relied on tripping an external breaker. Not saying it won't work... just saying I'm not comfortable shorting 220 to ground.
 
I've been around a lot of equipment with built in Emergency Stops (E-Stops), and don't remember any that relied on tripping an external breaker. Not saying it won't work... just saying I'm not comfortable shorting 220 to ground.

Understandable, Ed. Although I'm shorting 110 to ground, not 220, that's of little importance. Ultimately, it comes down to what you are comfortable with. After all, you are going to rely on this mechanism to save your a$$ when sh*t hits the fan, so use what you are most comfortable with. I would feel just as comfortable with your setup as I do with mine, for what it's worth.

Now, let's make some beer!

:mug:
TB
 
Back
Top