LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
What does "pedantic" mean?
So who's worked in their main electrical panel?
- Thread starter kevreh
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
What does "pedantic" mean?
Just trying to be helpful thanks for making me feel small.
Thought you gave some good info there, of course anyone who had been previously electrocuted would not be able to read it.
Sorry if I started something. I seriously thought it was a good post.
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
Relax, Francis. If someone says, "man, I just electrocuted the crap out of myself putting in that outlet" they obviously did not die from electrical current. But there's no need to remind them that they were simply "shocked" instead of being "electrocuted."
And if a comedian is doing well in front of a crowd, he is not technically "killing them."
processhead
Well-Known Member
If y'all keep using those 50 cent words, I'm gonna have to go to the remedial HB forum for us illiterates.
Your example of comedian is completely irrelevant with regard to correctly using the term shock or electrocution.
- sanitize or sterilize
- mash or steep
Many excellent cases where this applies. I'd rather be corrected and understand than to continue to be wrong and look like a fool. Some folks are good with looking like a fool though. (Not saying mikescooling looks like a fool. This is a very common misuse of the word. If he does it again, that is foolish though!)
Pretty sneaky
I have a 100A service to my house with a 100A sub feed to my brew shop. I have 64A worth of elements all capable of being fired at the same time. And occasionally they all are. Everything is of course wired with proper over current protection. I have never tripped a breaker. My average monthly draw is about 4A. Try calculating what your electric bill would be if you ever got close to drawing 100A continuously or worse 200A!
At my cost of .06per Kw 100amp = $6044.40 a year based on 115 volt draw.
I know nothing of antique litter boxes sorry
At my cost of .06per Kw 100amp = $6044.40 a year based on 115 volt draw.
If you have a 240V service you calculate your total load with that. So if you maxed your service, you would pay double your calculation. And if you were me, you would more than double that number because I pay about 0.14/kWH.
I calculate my maxed 100A at $29,400/yr or $2,450/mo. I pay about $100/mo which is about 4 of those 100A.
100A 120V continuous draw for me at my poor people power rate of 10.06c/KwH would be $10,575 per year.
However, I get a discount off retail price. A good chunk of my pay is tied up in "allowances", which aren't counted or taxable a "income". As such, I'm locked into a no-tier system (as is much of the state's residents). Retail prices are scary, built off a baseline tiered system.
Baseline (Up to baseline) $0.13 per kWh
Tier 2 (101%-130%) $0.15 per kWh
Tier 3 (131%-200%) $0.30 per kWh
Tier 4 (201%-300%) $0.34 per kWh
Tier 5 (>300%) $0.34 per kWh
Last month's baseline as shown on my bill was 384 kWh. We'll pretend that's the average for the year.
120V 100A continuous is 12 kWh per hour, or 105,120 kWh per year. Hence...
Baseline (Up to baseline) $0.13 per kWh - first 4608 kWh costs $599.04 (100,512 kWh to go)
Tier 2 (101%-130%) $0.15 per kWh - next 1382.4 kWh costs $207.36 (99,129.6 kWh to go)
Tier 3 (131%-200%) $0.30 per kWh - next 3225.6 kWh costs $967.98 (95,904 kWh to go)
Tier 4 (201%-300%) $0.34 per kWh - next 4608 kWh costs $1,566.72 (91,296 kWh to go)
Tier 5 (>300%) $0.34 per kWh - remaining 91,296 kWh costs $31,040.64 (all done)
For a grand total of... $34,381.74 per year.
Funny thing is, that's for 100 amp service. Many nearby houses have 200A service, and it's not uncommon to see 3000+ sq ft houses on 400 amp service.
Edit: Total was 686 kWh for 32 days billed, which is 21.44 kWh per day, or 893 watts average continuous. Think I need to go around and turn off some more lights...
However, I get a discount off retail price. A good chunk of my pay is tied up in "allowances", which aren't counted or taxable a "income". As such, I'm locked into a no-tier system (as is much of the state's residents). Retail prices are scary, built off a baseline tiered system.
Baseline (Up to baseline) $0.13 per kWh
Tier 2 (101%-130%) $0.15 per kWh
Tier 3 (131%-200%) $0.30 per kWh
Tier 4 (201%-300%) $0.34 per kWh
Tier 5 (>300%) $0.34 per kWh
Last month's baseline as shown on my bill was 384 kWh. We'll pretend that's the average for the year.
120V 100A continuous is 12 kWh per hour, or 105,120 kWh per year. Hence...
Baseline (Up to baseline) $0.13 per kWh - first 4608 kWh costs $599.04 (100,512 kWh to go)
Tier 2 (101%-130%) $0.15 per kWh - next 1382.4 kWh costs $207.36 (99,129.6 kWh to go)
Tier 3 (131%-200%) $0.30 per kWh - next 3225.6 kWh costs $967.98 (95,904 kWh to go)
Tier 4 (201%-300%) $0.34 per kWh - next 4608 kWh costs $1,566.72 (91,296 kWh to go)
Tier 5 (>300%) $0.34 per kWh - remaining 91,296 kWh costs $31,040.64 (all done)
For a grand total of... $34,381.74 per year.
Funny thing is, that's for 100 amp service. Many nearby houses have 200A service, and it's not uncommon to see 3000+ sq ft houses on 400 amp service.
Edit: Total was 686 kWh for 32 days billed, which is 21.44 kWh per day, or 893 watts average continuous. Think I need to go around and turn off some more lights...
No, because you really only have a few 240 draws Dyer, range, water heater, pool/spa which draw 1/2 the amps that they would if they were run off 110/120 volt. When calculating the total line you need to calculate each circuit then total.
thadius856 said:
Damn, my house is 1600 sq ft 5 fridges/freezers + spa here's mine over 1/2 my bill is fuel charges
If we are maxing out a 100A service, we are drawing 100A at 240V or 200A at 120V. You may not be drawing anything on one leg if you only have 120V loads running but your meter is still monitoring 240V and averaging the draw of the two legs.
You are billed for power (Watts), not amps or volts.
10A @ 240V or 20A @120V are both 2,400W. If you ran either load for 1 hour you'd be billed for 2.4kWh of power just the same.
I calculated 120V because the dryer is my only 240V circuit that gets used.
But yes, clearly I have two 120V legs. So if you want to double, go ahead.
But yes, clearly I have two 120V legs. So if you want to double, go ahead.
Amps X Volts = Watts and you actually pay per Kilowatt which is 1000 Watts
Watts X Hours run X Days run per year = Total Watts
Total Watts divided by 1000 X cost per Kw will give you total cost per year.
While I get where you're going with this one, he's correct. A watt is not something can be billed upon because it only describes a load at one point in time that has zero length. Its meaningless (for billing purposes) without a timeframe, which is why you're billed in kilowatt-hours.
1 kWh could be 500 watts for 2 hours or 250 watts for 4 hours or 28,800 watts (120V 240A) for 2.1 minutes.
processhead
Well-Known Member
Thadeus has nailed it.
Electric power is billed by the Kilowatt hour. kWh is power rate per unit of time just a Thadeus describes it.
The heating element in your brew kettle uses a fixed amount of power (watts). It is the length of time that it is turned on that determines whether the power company charges a lot or a little.
A higher wattage element will cost more money to operate than a smaller one, given they are both on for the same length of time.
Our discussion was about the maximum cost for a 100A service. You can figure that as 100A x 120V x 2-legs = 100A x 240V. If you use 120V x 100A you have to double it to represent the max you can draw.
My main point was that most services are drawing no where near full capacity on average. That is not to say that a house with a lot of electrical appliances could not have a large current spike under certain conditions. That is why 100A is the minimum residential service now and larger houses will have 200A or larger services.
Correct was pointing out that just because your neighbor has 200A doesn't mean he uses all of that
processhead
Well-Known Member
Some may ask the question, "why size an electrical service so big, if so much of that capacity is unused"?
There are some loads like A/C compressors, and other motor driven appliances that will have much higher amp draw when starting than they do while running.
Your electrical service and panel has to be sized to handle those brief, high amperage starting loads and still keep everything else running.
When you see lights briefly dim in your house, it often is because some large motor load in an appliance is starting up and dropping your service voltage for and instant.
There are some loads like A/C compressors, and other motor driven appliances that will have much higher amp draw when starting than they do while running.
Your electrical service and panel has to be sized to handle those brief, high amperage starting loads and still keep everything else running.
When you see lights briefly dim in your house, it often is because some large motor load in an appliance is starting up and dropping your service voltage for and instant.
I have primarily electric heat at my place (dual fuel, electric & natural gas). Draws 18kW when operating. Was put in before I bought the house and it looks like they upgraded the system to a 150A panel at the time. Not sure why they didn't just go 200A but, whatever, I suppose.
Easy answer $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Yeah, I'm sure. Tightwad SOBs...probably would have been a fraction of a percent on the whole project. Probably had to special order the oddball 150A panel too.
Lowe's stocks a 150A SquareD HomeLine load center. Home Depot probably carries something similar.
My bet for the 150A service is that they wanted to reuse the same breakers, so they bought a compatible load center and the 200A version was out of stock that day.
It's a regular QO panel not the Homeline. It's a small town and was done by one of the local electricians. Dunno what they keep on hand but my guess is probably not too many breaker panels. Maybe this is one they just happen to have laying around. Anyway, doesn't really matter other than a point of conversation inasmuch as it seems more common to use a 200A once you go past 100A. Have no idea what the original panel was.
kevreh
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what state your in, but if you have natural gas but are primarily using electric for heat (ie. heat pump) then you should look into using gas for 100% of your heating. Price to upgrade to a gas furnace may be worth it with low NG prices and possibly even lower with the NG surplus we has. NG should be a lot cheaper, unless you live in a state with moderate winters.
landshark
HMFIC
We've been designing a ton of apartment complexes lately here in the KC area and everyone gets a 150A panel. it's not that uncommon. they are cheaper than 200A panels, and when you look at the cost, every little $$ added up counts to more profit to the GC. the fact is, very few people will ever need any more that that 150A (add up the electrical loads in your house, apply any diversity in the size, most houses are probably not to a 150A). And even less will ever want or need to add to it. With apartments it is a little different as most tenants are probably not allowed to add to the panel, along with by the time the electrical contractor has ordered 150 panels, the savings really adds up. With a house though, it is similar, most contractors don't typically one out houses, they like to get an entire street or new subdivision and build multiple houses, 8 or 9 going at a time in different stages to keep the subs busy. So when the electrical sub orders panels, they'll order by the case or a few dozen, as the next house to be wired is next week.
And as mentioned, most individuals will not worry about adding to their panel ever. I know several people who don't even know what service their house is.
And as mentioned, most individuals will not worry about adding to their panel ever. I know several people who don't even know what service their house is.
I get low off peak rate on the electric for heat . It's separately metered at something like 4 or 4.2 cents/kWh.
Based on the delivered nat gas cost it's roughly break even at this point. If I spent the money for a very high efficiency furnace maybe that would change but there doesn't seem to be enough incentive for me to do that at present. If/when the existing furnace breaks down I'll consider going that way.
y2jrock60
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As long as you shut off your main breaker you'll be relatively safe. You can actually hook up a 30 or 50amp 2-pole breaker for you e-brewery without actually turning the main breaker off. You just need to connect your neutral and ground wires to their respectful lug bars and the two hots to the breaker. You can touch the neutral and ground bars without being shocked, test them with a voltage pen if you're still not sure. The circuit wont' get any juice until the breaker is snapped onto the hot bus bar.
OK those pictures are pretty horrific, but are not indicitave of every DIY electrical upgrade that has ever been done. I completely rewired our old house from the weatherhead (wires that touch the house from the street) through the meter to the main panel and on to every switch, receptical and outlet in the house. My electrical upgrade was inspected by the city, looked cleaner than 1/3 of the "professional" installs I have seen and did not have any issues. (on the initial inspection I was told that I ran redundent grounds from the meter and the main panel, but the inspector passed me before I had pulled out the redundant ground).
As long as you are careful, do your proper research and take your time and be carful this is not wizzardry. Make sure you are using the proper guage wire for the length of the run and the breaker it is tying into. Do not splice wires for your runs unless it is done correctly and the splice is enclosed in a junction box that is accessible after the work is done.
Get a copy of your local building/electrical code and if you have any questions, find a reputable electrical/wiring forum (not HBT) or call the city inspectors to ask questions.
As many others have stated, unless your main breaker is outside of your panel there are still hot wires in the panel so be careful. Get a good electrical meter and test everything before you touch it. Test with the meter with the power on, to validate you are getting good readings, then turn it off and validate there is no current.
If you are still in doubt, hire a professional, but again this is not wizardry. Common sense, good research and planning go a long way.
If you want to be 100% sure, call your power company and ask them to pull the meter can before you start your work. If your meter is seperate from your panel, this ensures there is no live voltage running through your house's wiring. Likely the power company will require an inspection of any work performed before they attach the meter, but this is not a bad thing, just be sure to plan for it.
As long as you are careful, do your proper research and take your time and be carful this is not wizzardry. Make sure you are using the proper guage wire for the length of the run and the breaker it is tying into. Do not splice wires for your runs unless it is done correctly and the splice is enclosed in a junction box that is accessible after the work is done.
Get a copy of your local building/electrical code and if you have any questions, find a reputable electrical/wiring forum (not HBT) or call the city inspectors to ask questions.
As many others have stated, unless your main breaker is outside of your panel there are still hot wires in the panel so be careful. Get a good electrical meter and test everything before you touch it. Test with the meter with the power on, to validate you are getting good readings, then turn it off and validate there is no current.
If you are still in doubt, hire a professional, but again this is not wizardry. Common sense, good research and planning go a long way.
If you want to be 100% sure, call your power company and ask them to pull the meter can before you start your work. If your meter is seperate from your panel, this ensures there is no live voltage running through your house's wiring. Likely the power company will require an inspection of any work performed before they attach the meter, but this is not a bad thing, just be sure to plan for it.
Spiny-Norman
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I work as a commercial high voltage electrician. 35 years or so in the biz. Been shocked a couple times and wrecked some stuff.
I work on live 480 three phase panels most every day doing troubleshooting on controls and pull elbows and crap on voltages up to 12,470 three phase.
I saw a post or two that said the white (neutral) was safe to touch. Not true on live stuff. The neutral can carry the sum in certain cases. (Rare) But it is not to be touched.
At a minimum you should be wearing some good thick dry leather gloves, Good eye protection, And no polyester leisure suits allowed. ;-) 100% cotton long sleeve shirt. If you don't have proper insulated tools you can wrap your Craftsman screwdriver blade with elect. tape down to about 1/4" from the end. <- this is important.
I wouldn't go into a panel with anything less. And I have to wear much more.
I work on live 480 three phase panels most every day doing troubleshooting on controls and pull elbows and crap on voltages up to 12,470 three phase.
I saw a post or two that said the white (neutral) was safe to touch. Not true on live stuff. The neutral can carry the sum in certain cases. (Rare) But it is not to be touched.
At a minimum you should be wearing some good thick dry leather gloves, Good eye protection, And no polyester leisure suits allowed. ;-) 100% cotton long sleeve shirt. If you don't have proper insulated tools you can wrap your Craftsman screwdriver blade with elect. tape down to about 1/4" from the end. <- this is important.
I wouldn't go into a panel with anything less. And I have to wear much more.
rico567
Well-Known Member
There are lots of experienced -not to mention professional- folk in this thread- and the inexperienced should bear that in mind as they read.
My electrical knowledge has all been gained haphazardly, and over a life that is now nearing seven decades. The only electrical law more important than Ohms' to me is Rogers': "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."
Accordingly, while I'm perfectly comfortable running 120/240 circuits from the house panel, I will absolutely not touch anything upstream of that. Two years ago, we installed a standby generator. Could I have done the install myself? Certainly, and to code, and with no real consequences (where we live there are no permits, inspectors, and the like). Did I? Not on your nellie. I hired a licensed professional electrical contractor.
My electrical knowledge has all been gained haphazardly, and over a life that is now nearing seven decades. The only electrical law more important than Ohms' to me is Rogers': "Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."
Accordingly, while I'm perfectly comfortable running 120/240 circuits from the house panel, I will absolutely not touch anything upstream of that. Two years ago, we installed a standby generator. Could I have done the install myself? Certainly, and to code, and with no real consequences (where we live there are no permits, inspectors, and the like). Did I? Not on your nellie. I hired a licensed professional electrical contractor.
Handcraftedsince87
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This thread has been a very entertaining read. Sorry to go off topic.. not that it hasn't already been done, but I have a pretty important question I need answered before I can go back to work.. (Im curently on lunch break..maybe I need to just go home..) I'm a journeyman union industrial electrician.. BUT, not the IBEW... we work out of the IAMAW. So does that mean Im worthless? or half worthless? Or is that a grey area? What should I do? I think I'm a pretty good electrician, but I have worked with others, both IBEW union and non union, that I wouldn't trust to work in my house, and others who are better than I am. My point is I don't think it's fair for someone to blanketly say that someone else is or isn't good at what they do without having worked with them.
It reminds me of the children in the carpenters union that wanted to fight us because we worked as a non union carpentry crew. I support unions, but not for everything. I would never tell someone they shouldn't work if they're okay with making less money. (Why I'm not a carpenter anymore. Too many people willing to work harder for less money than I would), Nor would I judge them without having worked with them. That being said, I also make more money in my non IBEW job than those journeyman electricians in this state make.
Sorry to ramble. Great thread. Carry on
It reminds me of the children in the carpenters union that wanted to fight us because we worked as a non union carpentry crew. I support unions, but not for everything. I would never tell someone they shouldn't work if they're okay with making less money. (Why I'm not a carpenter anymore. Too many people willing to work harder for less money than I would), Nor would I judge them without having worked with them. That being said, I also make more money in my non IBEW job than those journeyman electricians in this state make.
Sorry to ramble. Great thread. Carry on
Nice necro...
Handcraftedsince87
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I understand that to mean "revive a very old forum thread" is that bad? I had just read it.
