Agreed, thanks. I have a friend who's getting into AG. I'll help him do a batch and see what I think. Now I'll let this thread get back to not nuking extract.
Brewing Extract, without nuking the Extract.
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W0mbat
Member
If you are adding extract at flameout, you aren't getting a hot break (right?). Does this cause any issue/give any benefits?
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
I'd be careful about that line of thought... Hop utilization is not the purpose behind the 60 minute duration of the boil, but hop isomerization is. With a shorter boil (say, 30 minutes) you're not going to isomerize the hop oils to the same degree, so you won't get the same bittering effect. You'll get a little more of a flavor impact from your 30 minute "bittering" addition and a little less bittering, so you'd wind up having to increase the amount of hops used in order to get the same perceived bitterness while at the same time increasing that flavor impact. In the end, you'd use more hops and not get quite the same end result as you would have gotten from a 60 minute addition.
ChemicalBrew
Active Member
How do you get a hot break if most of the extract is added at flameout? I thought the majority of proteins in the hot break come from the grains or extract with the hops only causing a small amount. If the extract never gets vigorously boiled it will be sanitized but the proteins won't have a chance to coagulate. Am I missing something?
The extract LME, or DME, has already been through processing. I believe the hot break, has already occurred.
However, I'm not positive about this, so I'm waiting for Yooper to elaborate...
I am talking 20m boils. Of course you don't get as much bittering effect in a shorter boil. You have to use more hops to get as much bittering. In a shorter boil you don't boil off as much flavor and aroma but you can still get enough bitterness. I do 15m and shorter hop additions all the time. I believe hops between 60m and 20m are a waste. Sure they add something but not enough bittering, flavor or aroma to be worthwhile. Works great if you like hop aroma and flavor without the really high bitterness.
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
The extract LME, or DME, has already been through processing. I believe the hot break, has already occurred.
However, I'm not positive about this, so I'm waiting for Yooper to elaborate...
I remember listening to a podcast interview of Bob Hansen from Briess, where he went over the entire process of producing extract. Before going to Briess to oversee production of their line of malt extracts, Bob was a brewmaster for a chain of brewpubs, one of which used extract as their primary source of fermentables. So this guy really knows a lot about extract.
Anyway, he said the wort goes through a full length boil before being concentrated. So you're correct about the hot break already occurring. He also mentioned that a big reason why extract beers can sometimes seem thin-bodied is because in a concentrated boil, whatever proteins that remain in the extract coagulate and boil off. Basically undergoing a second hot break. To avoid this, a full boil, or late extract additions, were required.
A good listen if you can find it.
I think stratslinger was dead-on: short boils release the oils from the hops and give some bitterness; long boils release the oils AND ISOMERIZE THEM which creates MORE bitterness. You're not isomerizing the oils in a 15-20 minute boil which is why you need more hops to achieve the same perceived bitterness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_acid
"The degree of isomerization and the amount of bitter flavor produced by the addition of hops is highly dependent on the length of time the hops are boiled. Longer boil times will result in isomerization of more of the available alpha acids."
mttfrog13
Well-Known Member
I do partial mash recipes with a bit of extract. My rules for using extract are pretty simple...
1. Only use light, extra light, or wheat extract. Dark malt seems to be more sensitive to boiling, especially if you're not doing full boils. I have used amber and munich extracts in the past and they seem to have a slight caramelly burnt flavor and turn out darker than expected. If you do full boils, then this probably isn't an issue.
2. Only use DME. It will stay fresh longer than LME, and will be lighter than LME. Don't do a flameout addition with DME because it will take about 5 - 10 minutes to get all the clumps out. If you're doing 2lbs or less, I would do the late addition at 10 minutes. If you doing a lot of DME with 4+ lbs, I would add the extract at 15 minutes.
3. Use about half of your extract at the beginning or end of the boil if doing an extract/steeping grains recipe, or use all of your extract as a late addition if doing partial mash. You want may want some extract in there because it will help with hop utilization, but too much extract can hamper hop utilization, especially if you don't do full boils.
I just switched to 3 gallon batches so I am starting to use a lot less extract than before and I am doing (nearly) full boils so I'm not running into some of the problems I mentioned above. In the past I didn't 5 gallon batches with about 5lbs of grains, but now I'm doing 3 gallon batches, with about the same 5lbs of grains but I am only needing a pound or two of DME.
1. Only use light, extra light, or wheat extract. Dark malt seems to be more sensitive to boiling, especially if you're not doing full boils. I have used amber and munich extracts in the past and they seem to have a slight caramelly burnt flavor and turn out darker than expected. If you do full boils, then this probably isn't an issue.
2. Only use DME. It will stay fresh longer than LME, and will be lighter than LME. Don't do a flameout addition with DME because it will take about 5 - 10 minutes to get all the clumps out. If you're doing 2lbs or less, I would do the late addition at 10 minutes. If you doing a lot of DME with 4+ lbs, I would add the extract at 15 minutes.
3. Use about half of your extract at the beginning or end of the boil if doing an extract/steeping grains recipe, or use all of your extract as a late addition if doing partial mash. You want may want some extract in there because it will help with hop utilization, but too much extract can hamper hop utilization, especially if you don't do full boils.
I just switched to 3 gallon batches so I am starting to use a lot less extract than before and I am doing (nearly) full boils so I'm not running into some of the problems I mentioned above. In the past I didn't 5 gallon batches with about 5lbs of grains, but now I'm doing 3 gallon batches, with about the same 5lbs of grains but I am only needing a pound or two of DME.
DrVertebrae
Well-Known Member
This is good info. I had always wondered at the darkness of my extract beers and have tended to use light extracts for that very reason. My next batch will definitely involve a flame out addition of the last half or 2/3 of the extract. I had also forgotten about the isomerization of the hop oils. Thanks for the reminder.
Yooper, in another thread you gave me some good info on Hot and Cold breaks. Do you think an addition with five minutes left would be enough to get another rolling boil and provide for a good hot break?
I don't know. It seems like when I make a starter with DME that just boiling for a minute causes some hot break, but not always. I don't know if I ever got a hot break with LME before, though. I don't think so, but can't really remember.
Reread what you posted. You get isomerization starting when the hops hit the boil. You need more hops to get more bittterness in a shorter boil because they are not as fully isomerized as they would be in a 60m boil. Hops isomerize at different rates dependent on temperature which means they can isomerize even after the boil if you don't drop the temperature low enough.
stratslinger
Well-Known Member
But there's still the other half of my original point that seems to be getting missed - if you're really talking what sounds like a 20 minute boil instead of a 60 minute boil, now your hops are introducing more of a flavor component than a bittering component. So, if you ramp up the amount of hops to get an equivalent amount of IBU's at 20 minutes to what you would get at 60, you're going to have a pretty significantly different tasting beer. This may fit your plan perfectly - this is not to say it's a wrong thing to do. Just making sure that for any newer brewers out there who don't understand the chemistry involved that those two approaches will result in two pretty different beers.
CrookedTail
Well-Known Member
All very good advice, although I'm going to disagree #2 in your post. If you're buying your ingredients from a LHBS, and they can't tell you how old the LME on the shelf is, then I agree to stick with DME.
But if you can get the LME fresh, I prefer it over DME. I think it's easier to work with, and (again, when fresh) tastes better. Just my opinion.
I don't think you made that very clear in your first post. I also recommended reading up on hopbursting, not just going out and doing it.
mttfrog13
Well-Known Member
Sounds like people were trying to say (and assuming you didn't know) that IBU's don't necessarily correlate with "perceived" bitterness depending on what method one uses to get to a certain IBU level. I think most of us probably have a basic understanding of hop bitterness vs hop "flavor". My problem with using a lot of late hops rather just a little, highly utilized early hop additions is from grassiness. But I think that was because I left my hops in the primary which I'm not doing anymore.
Anyway, since the discussion was about boiling extract and getting less off flavors and lighter beer through shorter boils, would DMS precursors be a reason not to do a shorter boil? I've read that part of the reason to do a longer boil is to boil off DMS which can create off flavors. Otherwise, for lighter colored, lightly hopped beers, I don't see why people would do a boil any longer than whatever is required for the hot break.
I reread my post, and it still makes sense. Wiki (yes, I know, consider the source) seems to say that hop oils don't isomerize until boiled for quite some time, although no specific times are given. And unless you superheat your wort (which would definitely nuke your extract), the temperature stays around 212°. I'm still a rookie, but I've read and heard, and tasted in a few batches of my own: long boil = bitter, med boil = flavor, short boil or dry = aroma. Therefore something different is happening to the hops/oils between a 30m and 60m boil.
Also, stratslinger's second point was very clear to me, and made perfect sense.
Bottom line: If what you brew tastes good to you, you're doing it right, regardless of what anyone else says. Personally, I hate hops and have a crappy palate, so I do mostly late additions and everything tastes great. RDWHAHB!
It's always been my impression that a "hot break" is less important in extract brewing because the wort has already undergone a hot break as part of the extract manufacture process.
m3n00b
Well-Known Member
I added the final 6lbs of one to my iipa at flameout Sunday and it brought it down to 185f. Perfect temp for a hop stand. Added 1.5 oz and kept at at 180 for 30 minutes.
OK so trying to follow the KISS method why not by a good kit say from Midwest
Steep grain for 30 min.
Boil as usual without any LME or DME add hops at designated times
Flame out add both LME and or DME?
Steep grain for 30 min.
Boil as usual without any LME or DME add hops at designated times
Flame out add both LME and or DME?
Clonefan94
Senior Member
This is exactly how I understand it as well. I remember listening to a podcast, not sure if it was Beersmith or Basic Brewing, but they did an interview with a guy who worked for one of the major extract manufacturers. (again, don't remember which one, sorry) but the process was explained exactly like brewing. He even referred to his company as a brewery, because that is what they do. The only difference, is that instead of going into fermentation, it went to one of the vacuum areas where the wort was condensed to Liquid extract or sprayed to create DME.
So basically, the boiling part of the job was done. I would think, after listening to that, that especially if you were using a hopped extract, you wouldn't want to boil it any longer than you needed to insure sanitation.
Clonefan94 said:
You'll want to boil some of it for the full 60 (or less, depending on your hop schedule) to make sure you get proper use out of your hops, from what I understand... Which is why people add 1/3 to 1/2 at the start, then wait till the end for the rest, instead of just dumping it all in at the end.
This is about where I began to start Partial mashes,when trying not to boil extract too long. Splitting (not exactly equally-I do 1/3 in the 60 min boil) the extract at the beginning and end works goodthough. You can boil the hops with a partial mash(which isnt far off from steeping grains) then just add all the LME/DME at flameout or end of boil also. Getting a grain bag is not expensive as some have said about all-grain expense-you dont have to get much at least for a smaller batch or partial mash. It doesnt have to be at first,and grain is cheaper and you can get it precrushed. Its about as simple as making tea and rinsing it.
Im not trying to get too far off track here but there are pros and cons for any brewing technique.
Nothing wrong with doing all extract either. It-for me became more of an "ingredient expense". Extract is great also because you can have a very short/easy going brew day which is the convenience of extract that you pay more for that pre-made step. Ive made great all extract brews that even age well.
I also happen to notice some of the light malt extracts also vary in color. Ive also had used partial containers of lme in my fridge which happend to darken with some age. As far as color also my use with DME seemed to be lighter than my lme I used but that depends also on age or source/brand. Some of them have the SRM on them. Some of the lights are actually light-ambers. Sticking to light/extra light and doing the late extract addition should work well-just take it off the burner when adding it and keep stirring it to prevent scorching, even after the hot break- and watch it for aboil over.
Im not trying to get too far off track here but there are pros and cons for any brewing technique.
Nothing wrong with doing all extract either. It-for me became more of an "ingredient expense". Extract is great also because you can have a very short/easy going brew day which is the convenience of extract that you pay more for that pre-made step. Ive made great all extract brews that even age well.
I also happen to notice some of the light malt extracts also vary in color. Ive also had used partial containers of lme in my fridge which happend to darken with some age. As far as color also my use with DME seemed to be lighter than my lme I used but that depends also on age or source/brand. Some of them have the SRM on them. Some of the lights are actually light-ambers. Sticking to light/extra light and doing the late extract addition should work well-just take it off the burner when adding it and keep stirring it to prevent scorching, even after the hot break- and watch it for aboil over.
I believe it says the longer you boil the more AA will be isomerized. It's like pouring a packet of Cool Aid in water. Some dissolves right away while the rest takes time to dissolve. You can speed that up be stiring and it still takes a little time. At a certain point it is all dissolved or the solution is saturated. Same with hops. They will isomerize but heat makes it go faster and they will isomerize more as time goes by. At a certain point the solution is saturated. It is a gradual reaction not something that happens instantaneously at a certain point in the boil.
My 2¢...
I noticed huge improvements in the clarity and quality of my extract batches with:
-Splitting the addition of malt extract. Roughly 1/2 added at the start of the boil and the other 1/2 at around 10-15 minutes left.
-Full volume boils. Most beginner kits have you adding a few gallons of water to hit the gravity/volume target.
-Use of a 50' 1/2" immersion chiller.
I noticed huge improvements in the clarity and quality of my extract batches with:
-Splitting the addition of malt extract. Roughly 1/2 added at the start of the boil and the other 1/2 at around 10-15 minutes left.
-Full volume boils. Most beginner kits have you adding a few gallons of water to hit the gravity/volume target.
-Use of a 50' 1/2" immersion chiller.
m3n00b
Well-Known Member
I add 1/4 up front and the rest at flamout.
Bryali
Well-Known Member
^^This is almost exactly what I do.
For most of my beers, especially lighter-colored ones, I do late extract additions.
I also use irish moss, I use immersion chillers, I use secondary vessels, I cold crash.
Most of my beers, I can read through.
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