Difference between dry hopping & flameout hopping?

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aidan

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I'm trying to figure out the difference between dry hopping and adding hops at flameout since both are supposed to be for creating aroma.

So far I've done both on all my brews. But I'm wondering if both serve the same purpose or if they achieve different results?

I'm guessing that one difference is that the flameout hops also contribute a bit towards flavour whereas the dry hopping effect is limited to aroma - but I dunno, that's just a guess.

So if you have a limited amount of hops, which gives you the best bang for your hops, flameout or dry, or split between both?

And what is ideal amount of time for dry hopping? I see 7-10 days mentioned in some posts, just wondering if you are wasting the hops with anything less than 7 days?

Searching the posts for answers the best I've found is:
Well, the flame out additions ARE different than dryhopping. Dryhopping is done after fermentation, because the active fermentation causes tons of co2 to be produced and blown off, and blowing off all of those lovely hops aromas. That's why it's done later.

The flame out additions are not really blown off by fermentation, because the oils are already "in" the wort, if that makes sense. Adding hops after the wort is cooled, but before fermentation is over, is not going to give you the effects of either. I'd say that you'll "lose" the hops aroma that you would have had from adding them at flame out, before chilling.
from https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/understanding-hop-schedule-229240/index2.html, but that does not answer my questions.
 
Dry hopping for about four days is how I get the biggest fresh hop aroma. Flameout hops give a subtle hop aroma.
 
Dry hopping for about four days is how I get the biggest fresh hop aroma. Flameout hops give a subtle hop aroma.
So do you reckon you don't get as much bang for the buck with flameout hops? Or do they achieve something else that dry hopping does not achieve?
 
aidan said:
So do you reckon you don't get as much bang for the buck with flameout hops? Or do they achieve something else that dry hopping does not achieve?

They're different. Personally, I don't love dry hopping, but I do significant flame out additions with most of the beers I make. Not to knock it for anyone else, but dry hopping tends to produce a more resinous tone than I usually like.
 
I dont know yet havent tried dry hopping but i will tell you this doing late additons, put it this way the aroma has been very short lived for me,im talking not even 3 week bottled contionioned,maybe i didnt use enough i dont know i feel even flame out you still have to chill it giving at least 15 min steep time before its chilled to me it seems this will flavor it somebody correct me.
 
So, primarily, hops contribute bitterness, flavor and aroma... no duh, right?

The longer you boil, the more the hops are isomerized, resulting in more bitterness. How much bitterness is mostly influenced by the amount of the hops, the Alpha Acid content of the hop contribution, the volume of wort being boiled, and the overall gravity of the wort. So, in order to isomerize, you really need to BOIL the hops.

So, the longer the boil, the less flavor and the more bitterness. The converse is true as well. The shorter you boil, the less bitterness and more flavor. Adding hops closer to flameout, will result in the least amount of bittering while adding flavor. It will add aroma too, but mostly flavor.

Dry hopping adds 99% aroma since it doesn't occur at high temps. As previously stated, it shouldn't be done during the more aggressive fermentation phase since the CO2 being released by the yeasties will drive the aroma right out the airlock/blow-off. Give it ~7 days in the fermenter before adding the dry hops. Don't worry about sanitizing the hops but use sanitary practices when opening/closing the fermenter, and DO NOT STIR (don't want to introduce oxygen). Leave the hops in there as long as you like, 7-10 days is fine. Some of the aroma will fade with time, so don't be afraid if it's really strong at first.
 
Let me clarify... since your question was between flameout and dry hop additions... Both are intended for aroma, yes, but you'll get the most, long-term aroma from your dry hop addition. The flameout is more subtle and will provide both flavor and aroma. Kinda difficult to describe the impact without actually shoving you nose in it and pouring some into your throat.

What style beer are you attempting to brew, or are you simply looking for general information?
 
Let me clarify... since your question was between flameout and dry hop additions... Both are intended for aroma, yes, but you'll get the most, long-term aroma from your dry hop addition. The flameout is more subtle and will provide both flavor and aroma. Kinda difficult to describe the impact without actually shoving you nose in it and pouring some into your throat.

What style beer are you attempting to brew, or are you simply looking for general information?

Yeah, just general info, though I usually brew pale/amber ales, APA.

I used to be under the impression that the hops at flameout were for flavour, NOT aroma but reading old posts on this forum today I read that the flameout hops are actually for aroma, NOT flavour.

Anyone got any opinions on which gives you the best bang for buck for your hops? I guess flavour is more important than aroma when you are talking about hops impact, but aroma enhances the flavour so you need a bit of aroma too. But let's say you had a 100g of Cascade hops for a 6gal batch and you wanted the maximum hops impact with the given amount of hops and a target IBU of let's say 40. Ok, you would divide up your additions, lets say for simplicity, 60min, 20min, 0min and/or dry hopping. Your IBUs will come mostly from the 60min and a bit from the 20min and you figure the amounts to use for those 2 additions. Then with the remaining hops, you can split them between the 0min and dry - How do you divide them up for maximum hops impact? That's what I'm trying to understand. Up to this point I've put the bulk in at flameout and just a smaller amount for dry hopping.
 
aidan said:
How do you divide them up for maximum hops impact?

Add them all at 60 minutes.

I'm sure that's not the answer you are looking for, but there's no better one unfortunately. Different hop additions do different things. Asking what gives "the most impact" would be like saying "I have $100 for food. What should I buy to maximize deliciousness?" You'll get a different answer for every person you ask.

If you are just looking for a standard hopping schedule, there are tons of good recipes on this board. Perhaps start with one of those as a guide? 1/2 oz Summit at 60min, 1oz Perle at 20min, and 1oz Cascade at 0min will give you something nicely SNPAish, for example.
 
MalFet has a really good point...

I'd say that it's a matter of personal preference on what you want to experience. I personally would divide the hops into thirds (or so). I'd add the first addition at 60 minutes, the second at 15-20 minutes and the final third would go in as a dry hop addition. Of course, I'm answering without knowing the hop characteristics too. For me, I like the bitter, flavorful, aromatic aspects of an APA.
 
It all depends on what sort of flavor or aroma you are looking for.

For maximum utilization of IBU, put your hops in and boil for 90 min.

If you want more flavor with a smoother bitterness, look into hop bursting. This is a technique where all the hops are added during the last 20 min. of the boil. This will use larger amounts of hops to get the same IBU, but you get a huge amount of flavor and aroma.

Other brewers use a reduced amount of early boil hops and massive amounts of dry hops. Racer 5 and Alpha King are two examples of commercial brews where maybe an ounce to an ounce and a half are used for 90 min and then two oz for knock out and 3 oz for dry hop.

Pliny the Elder uses double dry hopping where a blend of 3 oz is dry hopped for 10-14 days and a second dose of 1 oz is added for the last 5-7 days.

Try out the different techniques and ideas to see what you like the best. Flavor and aroma will use a lot more hops than bitter, but isn't homebrew all about making beers that suit you?
 
So do you reckon you don't get as much bang for the buck with flameout hops? Or do they achieve something else that dry hopping does not achieve?

I believe that the flame out additions give your beer more complexity, while the dry hops punch you in the face with hop aroma. If you're asking would I rather spend my money on dry hops or flame out hops, I guess I would rather dry hop. I feel that the dry hops over shadow beer's subtleties...in a good way. You will notice the hops much more in a dry hop.
 
I don't know the science behind it, but there is a graph around these boards that shows that bitterness increases linearly over time. Flavor is absorbed between 15 and 25 minutes left in the boil, and apparently breaks down after 25 minutes. Aroma is absorbed between 5 and 10 minutes, and breaks down after 10 minutes. So I think flame out hops are going to be the least efficient use of the hops. You should get more aroma from dry hopping in secondary. No reason not to use flame out hops, though, as they likely end up steeping for 5 to 10 minutes as you cool and transfer your wort.
 
Anybody here ever experiment with loading up on the flavour hops (e.g. around the 20min mark) and ditching the aroma hops altogether? After all it's the taste that's more important than the smell. I realise that smell affects how you perceive taste but if I was given the choice of a beer with nice aroma but not much flavour vs. a beer with great flavour but not much aroma, I'd definitely go for the latter.
 
Anybody here ever experiment with loading up on the flavour hops (e.g. around the 20min mark) and ditching the aroma hops altogether? After all it's the taste that's more important than the smell. I realise that smell affects how you perceive taste but if I was given the choice of a beer with nice aroma but not much flavour vs. a beer with great flavour but not much aroma, I'd definitely go for the latter.

I think you're underestimating how much the aroma is perceived as flavor. I sometimes skip the 15 minute addition and just do flameout and dry hop. These beers can have big hop flavor. You can't separate aroma and flavor IMO, and I've proven (at least to myself) that you can and do get hop flavor with just "aroma" hop additions. It doesn't work the other way around, you can't get big hop aroma without flameout or dryhopping.
 
I almost never add hops toward the end of the boil, adding them after flameout instead.

Never had anybody tell me "this beer has a lot of hop aroma, but no hop flavor" despite hops being added nowhere between 0 and 60. I have 3 first place medals in the last year for IPAs made this way.

Hop flavor is simply bitterness + the retronasal perception of the volatile aromatic compounds.
 
I almost never add hops toward the end of the boil, adding them after flameout instead.

Never had anybody tell me "this beer has a lot of hop aroma, but no hop flavor" despite hops being added nowhere between 0 and 60. I have 3 first place medals in the last year for IPAs made this way.

Hop flavor is simply bitterness + the retronasal perception of the volatile aromatic compounds.

Thats the confunsing part bittering will flavor not just bitter.I never really associated it being it always says bitter flavor aroma.
 
Just ran accross this post.

remilard, would you mind posting the hops schedule you used. I have been thinking of doing an APA with Magnum for a clean bitter and then dry hops with no other additions. Sems like a fairly simple malt bill say 5% 60L and some munich with this approach wouldl allow for a nice light maltiness with a more "clean" hop flavor (not as complex, more straightfoward) using Citra.

Thanks.
 
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