Whenever I hit my volumes my efficiency stinks. My last two batches were 54.35% and 61.95%. If I go over my volume and then do a boil off, I am then usually in the 80% range, which I consider acceptable.I have a 10 gallon round Igloo cooler with a stainless steel false bottom. My volumes are good, my temperatures are good, and I am using the Palmer method of batch sparging. I know that I can use BrewSmith to add some grain to my mash to compensate, but that just seems wasteful. So here's my question ... will going to a 90 minute mash, or doing decoction raise my efficiency 20%? Or should I just toss in the towel and go to fly sparging?
Batch sparge not working well
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None of the above! A couple of reasons why- a 90 minute mash won't help unless you're not getting conversion in a 60 minute mash, and you may find the character of the beer will change with a longer mash. A decoction may raise your efficiency, but if it's not a beer that typically benefits from decoction, I don't see the advantage. And it won't raise your efficiency 20% anyway- maybe 2% or so.
Fly sparging may improve your efficiency- but only a small amount. It sounds like there is something in your process that is causing the issue. If that's the case, fly sparging won't help.
First, crush. That's usually the #1 reason for poor efficiency.
Secondly, conversion. I suggest an iodine test to see if you're getting conversion.
If you have a good crush, and you're getting complete conversion, then you can consider lautering efficiency.
Water chemistry can cause some problems with conversion (pH issues) so if that is checked off, we can look at the lautering/sparging portion of your technique.
What's your process?
+ 1 as the first place to look. Its one of two reasons I ended up getting my own grain mill (the other was so that I could buy grain in bulk and save some cash).
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GRHunter
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First, crush. That's usually the #1 reason for poor efficiency. - I have my LHBS do the crush for me.
Secondly, conversion. I suggest an iodine test to see if you're getting conversion. - Hmmm ... I haven't done that. But if it does show that I am not getting full conversion, what do I do about it?
If you have a good crush, and you're getting complete conversion, then you can consider lautering efficiency. - I believe this is where my problem is. How can this be increased?
Water chemistry can cause some problems with conversion (pH issues) so if that is checked off, we can look at the lautering/sparging portion of your technique. - I have not personally checked this. The guys at my LHBS said that my Detroit City water is almost perfect for all grain brewing and that I shouldn't have to do anything to my water.
What's your process? - 1) Pre-heat my tun\cooler 2) Empty the pre-heated water, dump in the gain, add my strike water 3) Stir for 5 minutes 4) After 15 minutes give the mash a gentle stir 5) Let sit for 45 more minutes 6) Vorlauf until clear (I use a piece of aluminum foil on top of the grain to keep from disturbing the bed) and then drain out all the wort 7) Add sparge water and stir 8) Let sit for 15 minutes 9) Vorlauf until clear and then drain wort until pre-boil volume is reached.
Secondly, conversion. I suggest an iodine test to see if you're getting conversion. - Hmmm ... I haven't done that. But if it does show that I am not getting full conversion, what do I do about it?
If you have a good crush, and you're getting complete conversion, then you can consider lautering efficiency. - I believe this is where my problem is. How can this be increased?
Water chemistry can cause some problems with conversion (pH issues) so if that is checked off, we can look at the lautering/sparging portion of your technique. - I have not personally checked this. The guys at my LHBS said that my Detroit City water is almost perfect for all grain brewing and that I shouldn't have to do anything to my water.
What's your process? - 1) Pre-heat my tun\cooler 2) Empty the pre-heated water, dump in the gain, add my strike water 3) Stir for 5 minutes 4) After 15 minutes give the mash a gentle stir 5) Let sit for 45 more minutes 6) Vorlauf until clear (I use a piece of aluminum foil on top of the grain to keep from disturbing the bed) and then drain out all the wort 7) Add sparge water and stir 8) Let sit for 15 minutes 9) Vorlauf until clear and then drain wort until pre-boil volume is reached.
Bingo - 90% chance that's the reason. When LHBS crushed my grain, I had a hard time getting over 60%, first time I used my own mill, I got mid 70s.
You could ask them to put it through their mill twice, or ask them if they could adjust their mill a little tighter for you.
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GRHunter
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That may be an option I need to look in to. Using the same method I described above I have had efficiency rates from 53% up to 82%. I think that my process is consistent and the only other variable is the crush. But I would like to rule out any stupidity on my part before spending money on a crusher.
This looks textbook perfect to me.
GR, is your avatar a picture of the home you live in?
Yep! It is exactly what you should do.
You could make sure that your grainbed during the batch sparge is at 168, just in case it's lower. The sugars are more soluble in warmer water, so sometimes I've had to add water as high as 179 to get my first round of batch sparging in the 168 range.
What is your preboil volume?
broadbill
Well-Known Member
Think about it, is there any reason why a LHBS would under-crush grains?
Two reasons I can think of:
1. Low efficiency causes customers to increase the amount of grain they buy.
2. Better crush may lead to stuck sparges in some recipes/systems and would cause customer complaints.
If you want to prove to yourself that the crush is to blame, then have your LHBS run your grain through their mill twice and see if that increases efficiency. They might complain/charge extra, but you'll have your answer.
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GRHunter
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Usually around 6.75-7 gallons.
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GRHunter
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GR, is your avatar a picture of the home you live in?
No, it is not. I do live in a 170 year old school house, hence the mock brewing name. But the house I live in has been so heavily remodeled over the years that it is not recognizable as a school house. I found the photo in my avatar on the Internet. It's a school house somewhere in Canada. I still have to Photoshop a bell in to the bell tower someday.
Very cool.
wildwest450
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Are you sure your not getting dough balls? Adding water to grain can cause the grist to stick together, causing poor efficiency. I always add grains to water a small amount at a time while stirring. Even a small dough ball can sit for an hour and still be bone dry in the middle.
Bach7210
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I caught this too when I first read through your process. I'd echo this advice, add the grain a little at a time to the water and stir stir stir!
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GRHunter
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I am almost positive that I don't have any dough balls. I give it a pretty good stirring at the beginning, and a light stir again 15 minutes into the mash.
What is your typical OG target in your low efficiency batches?
What strike water to grain weight ration do you use?
What is the typical volume of your first runnings on your low efficiency batch?
Have you tested your dead space in your mash tun by filling with a fixed amount of water and seeing how much does NOT come out?
What strike water to grain weight ration do you use?
What is the typical volume of your first runnings on your low efficiency batch?
Have you tested your dead space in your mash tun by filling with a fixed amount of water and seeing how much does NOT come out?
That's my local joint, too. I can't remember for sure but I want to say their mill is set at .38. I can't remember.
The last time I was there, I crushed my own with their machine and reduced the crush to like .28 or something.
Ask those guys what it's set to, they'll tell you.
What temp do you heat your sparge water to? When I first started AG I was sparging too low (using 168F water instead of trying to get the grain bed to 168F) and was getting 50-60% efficiency. Once I bumped up my sparge temp to 180-185F my efficiency shot way up.
As for the suggestion that a LHBS would intentionally under crush grain to profit, I don't find it plausible. It makes much more sense that they just don't maintain their mill as well as they should.
As for the suggestion that a LHBS would intentionally under crush grain to profit, I don't find it plausible. It makes much more sense that they just don't maintain their mill as well as they should.
MikeP
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just a thought, but you say you drain the wort until you get the pre-boil volume your looking for - if your leaving water in the tun, your leaving sugars in there as well - that's part of your efficiency problem.
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GRHunter
Well-Known Member
What is your typical OG target in your low efficiency batches? - Approximately 1.060
What strike water to grain weight ration do you use? - Whatever BeerSmith says. The last batch was 15 qts for 12 lbs of grain.
What is the typical volume of your first runnings on your low efficiency batch? - Approximately 2 gallons.
Have you tested your dead space in your mash tun by filling with a fixed amount of water and seeing how much does NOT come out? - About 2 cups. I am generally at, or over my volume, never under.
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GRHunter
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I empty the mash tun. I just didn't word that very well, sorry.
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GRHunter
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I thought that by going that high with the temperature it would change the characteristics of the wort. I can't remember all the science involved, but I am pretty sure there is an optimal temperature range for extracting the correct type of fermentables.
You want to bring the temp up to about 170F to denature the enzymes and stop the conversion process (called mashing out). The other thing bringing the grain bed up to this temperature will do for you is solubilise more of the sugars and bring them out into the wort.
The one issue with bringing up the temp is the potential for tannin extraction, but that is more based on pH AND temperature than temperature alone. As long as you don't over sparge, i.e. have very low gravity wort coming out of the tun, then you'll be just fine. If you're not sparing hot enough, I guarantee you that's where you missing efficiency is.
One bit of troubleshooting that stood out. Your first runnings are 2 gallons, and I'd assume the sparge is about 5 gallons. That's a big difference. You'd be best served to either mash a little thinner, somewhere like 1.5 qts per pound so that the runnings are closer to the same volume. You can also split the sparge into 2 equal portions so that all three runnings are around 2ish gallons.
I saw this piece of advice on another thread months ago (it may even have been Bobby M) and it helped my brewing a lot. Since I've been splitting my sparge in two to equalize my runnings, my efficiency has gone way up- from the 50s to the 70s.
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GRHunter
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So in your opinion, where would I stand to gain the most? By splitting my water equally between my strilke and my sparge? Or by splitting them three ways?
The more sparges you do, efficiency should increase in theory. But as in most cases, there is a point of diminishing returns. I feel that three runnings of approx. the same volume is a good compromise b/w labor in and eficiency.
My understanding (and practice) for batch sparging it to have the 1st runnings make up 50% of the total runnings I will collect. SO, if I am using two sparge batches, they will each be 25% of the total runnings. This is how I've always done it based on my reading on the topic several years ago. I get 75% of i use a single sparge, and 80% if I split that into two smaller sparges.
AT ANY RATE....
Something seems wrong with the fact that you put 15 quarts in and only get 8 quarts out with 12 lbs of grain. 12 lbs of grain will absorb a little under 1 gallon of water, so that explains where 4 of your 15 quarts went, but where the hell are the other 3?
Large dead-space?
AT ANY RATE....
Something seems wrong with the fact that you put 15 quarts in and only get 8 quarts out with 12 lbs of grain. 12 lbs of grain will absorb a little under 1 gallon of water, so that explains where 4 of your 15 quarts went, but where the hell are the other 3?
Large dead-space?
Here's an analysis of batch sparging, efficiency vs. number of sparges, etc.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis
FWIW, I split the water almost evenly between the mash and two sparges.
I go to Adventures in Home-brewing in Taylor also.
Their default crush size on the Mill is 37. (I wasn't happy with their 37, My eff was taking a hit when it was set to that)
If you simply ask, they will change their Mill setting.
ask for something between 30-34 and examine the crush.
Their default crush size on the Mill is 37. (I wasn't happy with their 37, My eff was taking a hit when it was set to that)
If you simply ask, they will change their Mill setting.
ask for something between 30-34 and examine the crush.
I too am getting low efficiency numbers. I asked Midwest what their mill was set to and they responded 0.020 - 0.025, which I think is pretty tight. So I can't blame their mill, it is probably something stupid I'm doing. I've tried batch sparging, fly sparging and decoction and get similar results (58% - 65% efficiency). I don't think I'm getting enough of the mash out of the tun.
Maybe next time I'll try a double sparge and tilt the cooler towards the end to really push out the sugars.
Maybe next time I'll try a double sparge and tilt the cooler towards the end to really push out the sugars.
wookiemofo
Well-Known Member
I'd question that mil setting... although I believe (and I could be wrong) that midwest uses a different mill then their walk in customers. I've never seen a worker in the grain room crushing grains when I've been in there. However every time I've stepped foot in that place, there is at least 2 other people waiting to crush grain. I stopped buying grain from MW and switched to brewmasters and my eff went up a decent amount. My last batch was around 62% because the relative humidity outside was 85% and my evap rate sucked.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
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