Stabilization/sweetening?

Hey, fermenting my own hard cider, simple and dirty- 5 gallons store-bought cider, 2lb brown sugar, champagne yeast.

It's pretty much done fermenting now. It's dry, as expected, and I'd like to sweeten it up. I got some potassium sorbate stabilizer from the local home brew shop.

Gravity
-------
8/29 1.056 (OG)
9/1 1.014
9/3 1.004

At what point should I add the stabilizer? Do I add it near bottling time or do I do it earlier so it can have time to stabilize?

Also, for a 5-gallon batch, how much of the stabilizer do I put in (I have an ounce)?

If anybody has tried to sweeten cider, a sugar qty estimate would be appreciated as well, though I'm sure I can find that one out by myself if need be.

Thanks in advance,
Scott

Do you have some campden tablets (or potassium metabisulfite) as well, or just the sorbate?

What I do is use 1 campden tablet per gallon (crushed) and 2/3 tsp sorbate per gallon, up to 1 1/2 tsp. for 5 gallons, dissolved in some hot water (like 1/4 cup). Add that to the new carboy, and then rack the cider into it. Wait a few days to ensure that it's stabilized, then add your sweetener.

Sweetening is definitely done to taste. What I like to do is pull out a large sample, and then pour it into different glasses. Add a little bit of your sweetener at a time, until you say, "That's it- that's where I like it!" Then, take the SG of that sample. Then sweeten the whole batch to just under where you like it, since it seems to gain some sweetness in the bottle. What I mean by that is if you like it at 1.010, but it's not quite sweet enough at 1.008, go ahead and sweeten it to 1.008. Then it'll be perfect in a month or two.

There you have it!

Thanks for the sweetening tips. That's about what I was thinking.

No, I don't have any campden tablets. I went to the home brew shop with intent to buy them (as I saw that reccomendation elsewhere) and the lady there said I would be able to do it with the potassium sorbate alone so I took her word for it... further research looks like they're best used in conjunction, but how much should I use with just the potassium sorbate?

Dougan said:

Thanks for the sweetening tips. That's about what I was thinking.

No, I don't have any campden tablets. I went to the home brew shop with intent to buy them (as I saw that reccomendation elsewhere) and the lady there said I would be able to do it with the potassium sorbate alone so I took her word for it... further research looks like they're best used in conjunction, but how much should I use with just the potassium sorbate?

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You use campden at 1 tablet per gallon. The sorbate should be about 1.5 tsp per 5 gallons (or 2/3 tsp per gallon, UP TO 1.5 tsp per batch). Don't exceed the recommended dose, because you can definitely taste it if you do.

You should use both- as sorbate works in conjunction with sulfite for stabilizing. If you haven't used any campden at all up to this point, you'll definitely want to use it now.

YooperBrew said:

You use campden at 1 tablet per gallon. The sorbate should be about 1.5 tsp per 5 gallons (or 2/3 tsp per gallon, UP TO 1.5 tsp per batch). Don't exceed the recommended dose, because you can definitely taste it if you do.

You should use both- as sorbate works in conjunction with sulfite for stabilizing. If you haven't used any campden at all up to this point, you'll definitely want to use it now.

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OK. Took your advice and got some campden tablets and used both at the levels you advised when I racked it yesterday.

I'll probably sweeten it tomorrow afternoon. I plan to use some brewer's math to figure out what concentration of sugar water I have to add to get the gravity I want in sugar. I'll probably then put this into my bottling bucket and siphon the cider into it. My plan is to bottle it right away. Anybody have any issues with this? Since I'm not priming yeast I imagine it'll condition just as well in a bottle as in the fermentor. It's been sitting in the fermentor for over two weeks now.

Sweetened and bottled a couple days ago. I'm noticing a very small yeast deposit on one of my clear bottles, though. Is that supposed to happen when you stabilize? Just worried that with the amount of sugar I put in there, if the yeast is still kickin', that i might have some explosive bottles on my hands.

Dougan said:

Sweetened and bottled a couple days ago. I'm noticing a very small yeast deposit on one of my clear bottles, though. Is that supposed to happen when you stabilize? Just worried that with the amount of sugar I put in there, if the yeast is still kickin', that i might have some explosive bottles on my hands.

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No, that shouldn't happen, unless it wasn't completely clear when you bottled it. I usually bottle wines and ciders no earlier than 6-9 months old, though.

Yeah, I did bottle pretty early. I thought it might have just been general settling. Some friends and I had a bunch of them on saturday and they were tasty and not foamy. I looked today at the ones we hadn't touched and the cakes on the bottom were large, like the size of the yeast in the beer I just brewed. So I opened one and there was a slight "pfft". Pretty sure it's carbonating... I'm going to wait until something explodes to take action though, just in case my judgment is wrong.

Any reason that would cause the yeast to not be killed by the method described above by yooperbrew? I followed it exactly. The yeast I had used was one packet of red star pasteur champagne. I waited two days (I think) after stabilizing to sweeten.

PS: By the way, the cider was/is delicious. Thanks for the help so far-- couldn't have done it without it. If the bottles don't explode I'm going continue to try to "perfect" my recipe.

Dougan said:

Yeah, I did bottle pretty early. I thought it might have just been general settling. Some friends and I had a bunch of them on saturday and they were tasty and not foamy. I looked today at the ones we hadn't touched and the cakes on the bottom were large, like the size of the yeast in the beer I just brewed. So I opened one and there was a slight "pfft". Pretty sure it's carbonating... I'm going to wait until something explodes to take action though, just in case my judgment is wrong.

Any reason that would cause the yeast to not be killed by the method described above by yooperbrew? I followed it exactly. The yeast I had used was one packet of red star pasteur champagne. I waited two days (I think) after stabilizing to sweeten.

PS: By the way, the cider was/is delicious. Thanks for the help so far-- couldn't have done it without it. If the bottles don't explode I'm going continue to try to "perfect" my recipe.

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the sorbate/campden should work well to keep yeast from reproducing- it doesn't kill yeast, though, that's why you wait after stabilizing before sweetening. If fermentation was over, and you stabilized, it should not be carbonating unless your yeast just wasn't done yet. Keep an eye on them, so you don't end up with bottle bombs. Maybe put those that seem to be fermenting into a fridge or a cold place to be extra careful.

Another possibility I found out the hard way is that your cider may have been saturated with carbon dioxide from the fermentation at bottling. This will cause the bottled cider to be slightly sparkling. You bottled pretty early so its not surprising you are still getting some settling.

The sulfite and sorbate combination is not fool proof, especially if the yeast are still active in the must. The goal of the chemical combination is to prevent renewed fermentation with the minimum addition possible. The assumption is that fermentation is complete and the wine/cider is clear. Therefore the yeast are already dormant. The sulfite and sorbate work to keep them dormant. Its possible that your yeasts were still active enough to survive/remain active through the stabilization process and are continuing to slowly work on the new sugar. Chilling the cider will stop the process and may prevent it from continuing even if you warm the bottles again.

I'm not sure which case you are dealing with but a rapid chilling of your batch wouldn't hurt.

Craig

Yeah, I dropped the ball by going so quickly. Guess I made some assumptions about the effectiveness about the stabilizers that were incorrect. However, I did put them in the fridge and it appears that if there really was any fermentation, it's stopped. To be honest, it's resulted in just a slightly carbonated beverage which, although unexpected, isn't undesirable.

In review, boiling 2.5 lb of sugar in 1.5 cups of water and adding that to a stabilized 5 gallon batch made this delicious and is definitely a hit with some of my picky-drinking friends (You know, people that don't like beer or "man's" liquor ). So in my rookie experience, if you're going for that, I reccomend doing that to sweeten it.

I plan to make another batch with maybe some upgrades soon-- and I'll probably not hurry it so much! Don't think there's any shame in rushing your first batch.

Thanks to all who helped me out on this thread, wouldn't have turned out tasty like this without the help.

Sounds like if you let it warm back up at all, it will be insta-bottle bombs. Refrigeration does not kill off fermentation, but merely causing yeasts to go dormant. Warm temps will revive them if given the time.

Tusch said:

Sounds like if you let it warm back up at all, it will be insta-bottle bombs. Refrigeration does not kill off fermentation, but merely causing yeasts to go dormant. Warm temps will revive them if given the time.

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Yeah, I kind of assumed that.

Dougan said:

Yeah, I dropped the ball by going so quickly. Guess I made some assumptions about the effectiveness about the stabilizers that were incorrect. However, I did put them in the fridge and it appears that if there really was any fermentation, it's stopped. To be honest, it's resulted in just a slightly carbonated beverage which, although unexpected, isn't undesirable.

In review, boiling 2.5 lb of sugar in 1.5 cups of water and adding that to a stabilized 5 gallon batch made this delicious and is definitely a hit with some of my picky-drinking friends (You know, people that don't like beer or "man's" liquor ). So in my rookie experience, if you're going for that, I reccomend doing that to sweeten it.

I plan to make another batch with maybe some upgrades soon-- and I'll probably not hurry it so much! Don't think there's any shame in rushing your first batch.

Thanks to all who helped me out on this thread, wouldn't have turned out tasty like this without the help.

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Is that 2.5 cups or pounds? 2.5 pounds of sugar seems like an awful lot, and I can't imagine 2.5 lbs dissolving in 1.5 cups of water.

2.5 pounds, yes. Yes, it was a bit sweet, but that's what I was going for. I'll probably lessen it a bit next time, but not too much. As for the water, maybe a pint and a half maximum? Keep in mind that I'm boiling it and that makes it into a syrup. I did have to boil for awhile (Maybe 5 or 10 minutes). You can dissolve quite a lot of sugar into a little bit of water, I discovered. What I ended up pouring in there had the consistency of maple syrup.

Mmmm sugar in a super-saturated state. Making rock candy by any chance? haha