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Zider

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Quebec
I gave this post this name so I can find it in all the other cider recipe threads.

I am trying to make something like a commercial British cider like blackthorn, merrydown, bulmers, etc with shop juice.

I read up on the long ashton cider research notes, http://www.cider.org.uk/part1.htm
various other sites and threads here, but mostly guided by taste.
My biggest complaint with my cider so far is it doesnt taste like cider. It's nice, appley, strong and fizzy but it lacks that distinctive 'cider' flavour. If you have drunk /been drunk on these ciders you know they dont taste of apples, they taste of...well cider.

I don't have keg so it has to be fizzy in the bottle.

Here I document my so far partially failed attempts to achieve what is available pretty cheaply in the UK and at great expense here in Quebec where apples are about the only thing that grows and yet, despite the french & english heritage in making cider, the ciders from here are over-prices artisanal, presumably tourist, drinks at 10-15$ a bottle, that taste like watery fizzy apple juice with alcohol. Not stuff to be quaffed by the pint to quench summer thirsts.

The main breakthrough I had was that my last batch tasted right. I screwed up the cold crash and pasteurising but I will here document my efforts to get it right.

I use a preservative free juice and malic acid to get pH to 3.5.
I add fructose to raise OG to 1.06, because these are closest to apple sugars and acids. Probably fructose is a waste of money but I have some anyway.

The start pH of juice was 3.7. I added 5g of malic acid in 4L juice to get pH down and 200g fructose to get OG up from 1.04. I made a graph of pH against malic acid addition (g/L);
graph.jpg


I used saflager 23, brewed at about 10-12C, (cold room in basement).

Fermented slowly for two weeks to 1.015

What I should have done was cold crash first, bottle and pasteurise.

What I actually did was bottle and leave at room temp for 1 day. I got a yeasty krauseny froth and a mild sulphury tang and gushers.
I released pressure slowly, resealed and pasturised one bottle as per the sticky (190F 10 min). The rest I cold crashed in fridge. I still see evidence of fermentation in the fridge which suggests the use of lager yeast was not as great an idea as I thought. I'll turn the fridge down to zero celsius. So far nothing has cleared.
I will then try to decant them off the sediment without losing it all as froth. I will do this by cooling everything in freezer and pouring v carefully. It's going to be messy.

Second batch exact same recipe underway.....New results in a couple of weeks.
 
...at great expense here in Quebec where apples are about the only thing that grows and yet, despite the french & english heritage in making cider, the ciders from here are over-prices artisanal, presumably tourist, drinks at 10-15$ a bottle, that taste like watery fizzy apple juice with alcohol. Not stuff to be quaffed by the pint to quench summer thirsts.

Here! Here!

Apples grow prolifically in North Georgia, yet the price is so exorbitant for apples that I haven't been able to afford to produce my own juice. (I have a useless fruit press) It's easier said than done to spend $10 a gallon to produce my own blend of juice from fresh pressed. As much as I love cider, I cannot afford to do this. I'd rather spend $20-$25 to make beer.

I love cider. I enjoy the ciders I produce from store bought juice, but unless I can plant an orchard, I haven't found a way to make it economical. (Tasty, quaffible (?) pints are what I am in search of!)

I have subscribed and hope this discussion provides more insight.
 
5 days at 3c and its not so clear but clearing.

The fart in my face arôme is more bready. Taste ok but again the cideriness not appleyness has diminished a bit.

2nd batch I will ferment dry and carbonate by priming in bottle, as per this site
http://www.cider.org.uk/part3.htm
going vigorously now

My plan for batch 3 is try a malolactic acid age at room temp. http://www.winemakermag.com/stories...ng-malolactic-fermentation-tips-from-the-pros
Anyone tried it ?

If none of these work maybe I'll just give in and accept apple alcopops as a problem I can live with

image-596207846.jpg
 
Three weeks on the clearing stuff in fridge almost cleared so I drank it alongside a commercial cider from here called Mystique. Pretty similar except mine less watery.

The second batch not fermented yet. Tastes quite dry,planning MLF with and without oak in my bid for the cidery flavour.
 
Try some wine tannin. It is one thing that separates cider apples from desert apples.
 
CRock303 said:
Try some wine tannin. It is one thing that separates cider apples from desert apples.

Yeah tried it before. Certainly more pucker but no different taste

I decided not to split a batch so did both oak chips (2 teaspoons n 1 gall Sg 1.004) with MLF Smells like cheap Chardonnay so hope that improves. That said I quite like cheap Chardonnay so could be ok.

I had thought that so2 might give the taste I'm after but Calvin's juice experiments suggest no difference.

Question. I have an open pack of half used MLF liquid. I'm thinking to pressure cook a litre of 2% malic acid stir in some nutrient and try to get a culture going. When it goes cloudy put in fridge for later. Anyone tried propagating this?

Tomorrow's experiment.
 
Thanks for the updates, Zider. I've never been a fan of cheap chardonnay, but an oaked chardonnay with hints of apple sounds nice. Maybe a nice pinot gris? ;)
 
MLF expansion experiment fail
1) 200ml + 1 tsp malic acid +pinch yeast nutrient + 1 tsp malolactic culture from the packet
2) same as (1) but with 1tsp sugar
Nothing....not one bubble.

Oak+MLF taste test:
tastes better, oak not overpowering infact not discernible, MLF is odd, crystal clear and fizzing away.
The taste is cidery-ish, definitely different and definitely better, will taste again every couple of weeks, expect it to be don in 7 more weeks
I'll get the oak out when it tastes too strong.
Oak idea from here;
All of our ciders here at Westons Cider are fermented in our large stainless steel tanks. After this, our cider is then matured in our old oak vats. Cider needs a period of maturation after fermentation to develop its full character. Some of the juice is matured for up to 8 months resulting in the mature flavour and full character that is associated with Westons ciders. Our fermentation vats are made of traditional oak and some are older than 200 years. These vats are huge, in fact, our largest vat, Squeak, holds 42,107 gallons (that's 340,000 pints of cider!)
westons-cider.co.uk
 
Then I thought I might as well make another batch of cider and do simultaneous mlf with normal ferment (same recipe as before but with Nortingham). This will save time, expand the bacteria and maybe arrive at desired taste profile faster. I read for wine it's not preferred like this but for cider must be fine since ml bacteria and yeast must both be on apple skins at pressing. Maybe sulfite kills them?

Results to follow.
 
Oak now tastes after nearly 3 weeks. Wil bottle and see if MLF can carbonate.
MLF has added a vinegary slight taste. Not good, think this came from adding too much culture liquid.

Nottingham + MLF simultaneous ferment is excellent, key feature is that no apple smell detectable in brew fumes, (no loss in apple taste so far).

Will try MLF+Oak during ferment to see if oak flavor incorporated rather than added on.

I make pilgrimage to Mecca
http://www.bristolciderhouse.co.uk
http://www.theorchardbs1.co.uk/#/cider/4550104530
http://www.thecoronationtap.com/aboutus.php
http://www.applecider.co.uk/?page=drinks
http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Cider_Pub_Guide_to_Somerset
 
Pickled_Pepper said:
mmmmmmmmmmm...scotch eggs.

Yes and only £1! Cornish pasties, ploughmans...never thought I'd miss any of that. 40 types of cider might require three sittings or some selectivity. I'll skip the perries for my liver's sake.

So mlf and oak is sweetened and bottled

I used 1tsp lactose and 1/2 tsp fructose.to 1 litre cider. It's semi-dry. I'll keep at room temp for a week and fridge it.
Vinegar aroma has gone and I think I deserve pat on back because it is bang on a cider and in no way a fizzy apple juice. The only flaw is it is too strong. A pint of this is not refreshing but will make you fluent in yokel and /or Swahili.
So I added another pint of apple juice to the new nottingham +mlf batch which is nearly done.... to try to weaken it a bit. 200g fructose per gall is too much it's a tad solventy. 100 or 50g will be fine.
I'll start another tonight with 50g fructose, oak,mlf and Nottingham. The malic acid level seems right.
 
So I drank all that. It do not carb at all. But It tasted great.

The one that fermented with oak chips from the start was certainly more woody. Again carbing is very weak so I left a couple of bottles out to see if it improves.

I made one with no added sugar. It might be my imagination but it seems less sharp. Is it possible that fermenting longer by adding sugar can screw up the taste
I am brewing another where I poured 2litres crappy apple juice then 2 days later, 2l organic pasturised (huks I think) and 2 cartons of frozen concentrate onto the Nottingham Yeast cake with malolactic bacteria and oak chips 2 tsp malic acid. Has a lot more body and richer but a bit too sweet to tell for sure.
I am firm believer in the mlf, certainly rounds it off.
Can you carb with MLF or is it not strong enough
 
I am homing in on the taste I seek

1) 2l crap juice
2) 2L organic pasteurised juice
3) 2 cartons (about 500ml) concentrate
4) 1 tsp malic acid
5) 1 tsp steamed oak chips
6) nottingham yeast & shot of malolactic bacteria culture.

i actually poured the juice onto an old yeast-bacteria-oak cake, 2L juice and let that go nuts, when it died down added the rest.

SO far the best yet, great flavor. fg is 1.000 notably it is brownish golden. Just got to get carbing better(will add pinch of ale yeast to bottle). Lactose does not make very sweet but does take sharp edges off. Last bottling I upped the sugar to 1 tsp fructose per litre, still barely fizzy.
 
So things got more holy after mecca

Does anyone recognise this place?

Anyhow this last recipe was left to sit on lees at room temp which here is 25C. It tastes divine and is now racked a week ago prior to carbing. For fun I got carried away split in two and added a couple of handfuls of frozen cranberries to one with some campden. This was daft, should have added cranberry juice. It has gone red though.

I will now scale this up to 5 gallons and it should be perfect by Xmas,,,thereby closing my holy exploits at an appropriate juncture.

Anyone like to try a gallon and confirm this recipe as very tasty?
:mug:

2013-07-11 06.24.29.jpg
 
are you using English cider apples, that's the only thing that will give you that real cider taste, as I'm sure you know

#2 in my observations the higher the OG, the longer for that "appley" flavor to come back.
Try less then 1.060.
(Is that right peppers?)

#3 I'm not a fan of that yeast (to try to get that flavor)... Have you tried a cider yeast yet?

Good luck dude.
 
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