Legal Questions

So a buddy of mine's Wife sampled one of the extract brews I made and loved it. She is starting her own catering company, out of her house, and keeps asking me to brew beer to pair with the meals she is going to offer. I like the idea of making a little money for something I enjoy doing, but I'm hesitant to agree to do it because of possible legal issues. Should I be concerned? What do you guys think about a situation like this?

you cannot sell your beer without proper licensing.

springer said:

you cannot sell your beer without proper licensing.

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i am aware of that.

so, then, ummm....whats the question?

It is illegal to distribute unlicensed, untaxed beer. There are state and federal limits on the quantity of untaxed beer which may even be brewed. States vary but Federal is 100 gallons per adult resident, max of 200 gallons per household.

It is possible to do it legally but you must get the proper permits and licenses from state and federal authorities. And pay the taxes or end up like Al Capone - imprisoned and syphilitic.

Well, if you're aware that you cannot sell your beer, why are you asking? Not to be a dick, but that just doesn't make sense. If you get any type of "compensation" for this, it would be illegal. There was just a post on here yesterday about a big festival at Ohio University that was broken up by the police for illegal distribution. From what I can remember, they weren't charging for the beer, they were only charging $1.00 for admission. Either way, it's still "selling" your beer!

So then what is your actual question ?

Do we think you should get all the licensing and sell it to the caterer ? If you can make money at it sure. How much will she need and can you keep up with the demand you need to ask yourself.

The AHA website catalogues all the states' laws on homebrewing. Check out the statutes for your jurisdiction:
http://www.beertown.org/homebrewing/legal.html.

Contact legal council.

FireNightFly said:

Contact legal council.

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Counsel.

Whew. Didn't mean to start a war here.

I guess I should have been a little more clear on my original post. I was looking more for "To do it legally, do this..." or "Because its through a catering company, you have to do this..."

Is there any real difference between this type of arrangement and selling beer myself? I'm thinking not, and I'm thinking my instinct to stay away from this arrangement is best.

Buffman said:

The AHA website catalogues all the states' laws on homebrewing. Check out the statutes for your jurisdiction:
http://www.beertown.org/homebrewing/legal.html.

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Sweet. Thanks for the info.

At least its legal to even brew beer in your state...

You probably are correct that you want to stay away from this arrangement, if for no other reason than the enormous amount of hassle you will have to deal with. Not only will you have to deal with the revenuers and the state agency that regulates alcohol, you may also have to deal with health departments, and I'm sure your friend can tell you all about how much fun that is.


TL

It might be best if you make the caterer look into licensing and so forth and agree to be employed by them since presumably they already have a food prep area that is to code, etc etc.

Good idea, ollllo. She would have to have the licensing to sell the beer anyway, might as well keep it all in one place.

Scimmia said:

Good idea, ollllo. She would have to have the licensing to sell the beer anyway, might as well keep it all in one place.

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Just remember, a license to sell beer or any commercially made alcohol, is not the same as a license to sell untaxed and unlicensed homebrew.

These kids ran into a real costly problem, because they didn't realize it, and if the cops wanted to push it they could have been arrested.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/ohio-university-homebrew-festival-shut-down-140105/

And just like any food product for sale, your beer will have to be brewed under very specific conditions, not JUST for taxation purposes, but under health codes as well. It no-longer becomes a hobby when a financial transaction is made for it.

There's a lot of hoops to be jumped through, it's not like making a batch of cookies for the school bake sale. it's a partnership with the Government.

Oh, I realize that, I just mean that it would make more sense for one entity to jump through the hoops twice than for them both to do it.

Scimmia said:

Oh, I realize that, I just mean that it would make more sense for one entity to jump through the hoops twice than for them both to do it.

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More than likely if he's going to brew, he's the one that's going to have to jump through the hoops.

The best person to ask on here is Brewpastor...he actually was in the business...and got out of it.

He wrote a great thread on it "adventures" in taking his homebrewing professional; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f28/dont-try-home-parts-1-2-3-a-11412/?highlight=professional

His first two paragraphs, gives you an idea;

Like many of you somewhere I get the idea that turning my hobby into my profession seemed like a reasonable thing to do. I had a decade of homebrewing under my belt, loads of ribbons - what could go wrong? At that point there were only 2 breweries in New Mexico and none in Albuquerque. The time and opportunity seemed right. That was 1991.

At first I thought I would utilize a clause in the zoning law and open a small keg and 22 oz bottle micro out of my home. I began getting the licensing paperwork in order and registered the name Rio Grande Brewing. Licensing involved the city zoning, city council, the fire department, city utilities, the department of health, ATF, New Mexico Alcohol & Gaming, Federal Label approval, and probably others I don't remember. It sucked. But I started making my way through the maze, while at the same time started to locate the equipment I would need.

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A lot of people don't realize all the government departments involved in it.

Yeah, I'm just going to avoid the whole situation. I dont think that I'd be able to make/sell enough to break even let alone turn a profit.

Its a hobby anyway, its supposed to be fun.

NoisufnoC said:

Its a hobby anyway, its supposed to be fun.

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That's all I'm saying. Keep it fun. I made the mistake of turning my coffee roasting hobby into a business and it got to be a real pita before I pulled the plug a couple months back.

I'll just reiterate what was said earlier and just say that if she receives payment for your beer, and then you in turn get paid ... it's illegal, and it's all about the taxes baby.

And for that matter, running a catering business out of a house is against FDA guidelines in most areas ... but that's another kettle of fish.

Just tell her that you'd be happy to advise her on what commercial beers to pair with her foods! She'd still have to have the proper licenses to sell liquor/beer/wine though and all states are different.

cheers

~r~

olllllo said:

It might be best if you make the caterer look into licensing and so forth and agree to be employed by them since presumably they already have a food prep area that is to code, etc etc.

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Did you all miss this part.

Have the caterer look into filing for federal brewing notice. Local etc.
Then be their employee.

NoisufnoC said:

Yeah, I'm just going to avoid the whole situation. I dont think that I'd be able to make/sell enough to break even let alone turn a profit.

Its a hobby anyway, its supposed to be fun.

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dontman said:

That's all I'm saying. Keep it fun.

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That's where I'm at about it too, that's why I don't brew or cook professionally, I like both of them too much to ever make a job out of it.

bronzdragon said:

Just tell her that you'd be happy to advise her on what commercial beers to pair with her foods! She'd still have to have the proper licenses to sell liquor/beer/wine though and all states are different.

cheers

~r~

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This is the only good option where you make money. Alternately, you could go off on your own as a beer pairing expert and have her market you to her clients and also try to get your own (individual beer tastings or restaurants) clients.

You can barely, barely, barely sell extract beer for the cost of materials and energy. The taxes and license fees would put you in the red and you haven't even paid yourself a dime yet.

dblalock said:

At least its legal to even brew beer in your state...

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I second this.

Revvy said:

That's where I'm at about it too, that's why I don't brew or cook professionally, I like both of them too much to ever make a job out of it.

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A man after my own heart! I turned several hobbies I loved into jobs I hated.

Surely an internet forum of homebrewers is the best place to seek legal advice. Well done.

Mutilated1 said:

Surely an internet forum of homebrewers is the best place to seek legal advice. Well done.

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A legal homebrewing issue that other members have dealt with. Yes, I think this is a good medium for the discussing the topic.

NoisufnoC said:

A legal homebrewing issue that other members have dealt with. Yes, I think this is a good medium for the discussing the topic.

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I'm just busting your chops dude - no offense.

Discuss away.

Just take anything thats said with a grain of salt and get your legal advice from a lawyer not a bunch of drunks on the internet ( no offence to anyone intended of course ) -- thats really the only point I was making.

Mutilated1 said:

I'm just busting your chops dude - no offense.

Discuss away.

Just take anything thats said with a grain of salt and get your legal advice from a lawyer not a bunch of drunks on the internet ( no offence to anyone intended of course ) -- thats really the only point I was making.

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no worries, just busting back

Mutilated1 said:

Just take anything thats said with a grain of salt and get your legal advice from a lawyer not a bunch of drunks on the internet ( no offence to anyone intended of course ) -- thats really the only point I was making.

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Does being a drunken internet nobody disqualify one from giving sound legal advice? I think not. Point not taken.

Roman

If you are confident that your beer is to style and up to scratch Why not give the beer away.

I'm sure your friend could look after you in other ways than paying directly for the beer.


It's your friend that will have more legal problems If they are serving beer to paying public.

Bardering of any kind is still a sale.

I would recommend doing things proper, getting your permits & insurance required by almost all states. I would also, spend $100 on a little legal advise, hell some lawyers might give you advise for free.

You have to remember, if you do it illegally, you may face heavy fines & imprisonment. Which most likly would mean you wouldnt be allowed to brew again or own business with any alcohol products.

If you looking for a cheep easy solution, there isnt one. Believe me. Last thing I would want is to do is go into a bar and drink something that wasnt passed by FDA or whomever checks beer for consumption. At least when I brew I know whats in my drink.

Good luck though, its a dream worth going after!

I don't usually post in forums. I mostly lurk and learn. But on this occasion I feel the need. Don't let these people on this forum bust your bubble. If your beer is good and you want to go this route; DO IT. Take some time to get the permits and try like hell to break even. It sounds fun.

Just because someone on the forum who has brewed for decades and does not have enough will or know how to keep a business alive does not mean you will have the same fate. Yes it will be hard; but anything good is.

Revvy said:

"That's where I'm at about it too, that's why I don't brew or cook professionally, I like both of them too much to ever make a job out of it."

If you love something that much then it is the perfect way to make a career. Now I do not know revvy and I mean no disrespect, but usually when someone says this, they are lazy or just don't have the skills to be successful on their own.

Go for it dude. Set yourself up and sell your beer. I bet in the long run it will be worth it. If nothing else you will learn a ton about business.

Matt

I gotta agree with the above... sort of...

I am a hobby junkie... mainly hunting and brewing. I toyed with a business partnership idea with my cousin for a bit regarding hunting, and decided that I did not want to make hunting my business because I find it to be too much of a passion for me.

BUT...

I've been brewing going on 5 years now and I am making plans with a chef friend of mine to open a brewpub when I retire from my first career (luckily and early retirement career). For some reason, brewing is different to me.

My only explanation is that hunting is a personal experience to me. Hours spent alone in a tree stand are precious to me. I decided to quit smoking in a tree stand 3 years ago and stuck with it 100%. It's like a religious experience to me. Brewing means just as much as a hobby, but your sort of have to share your brewing with other people or else you don't get that satisfaction of success.

For me, that is what makes the difference, and that is why I will give the professional side a go one day.