Ethics Thread

Someone recently posted a question as to whether or not "cyber-squatting" or tapping into the internet bandwidth of another without asking was unethical. This got me thinking that there are so many situations we come across every day that require a rapid decision, and some of these situations might leave us puzzled as to whether we have done the right thing in the end.

So the guidelines are simple. Either ask an earnest ethical question... nothing heady (I would REALLY rather this not spiral towards religion or politics)... or answer earnestly the question posed by someone else. This can be hypothetical, a current dilemma, or "I have this friend who..."

I'll start.

Is it unethical to laugh at the overheard conversation of a stranger, if it was conducted in public and was objectively hilarious? Let the table next to you that that was funny, or choke into your napkin?

You are in a crowded place. Somebody is speaking louder than necessary and you're not deaf. You pick up on what they are saying even though you didn't plan to but find yourself listening. Hey! If they crack a joke and you laugh? Why would that be unethical?

It's just human nature to eaves drop. If they were having a quiet conversation and you needed a stethoscope to hear them, that would be a bit creepy and unethical.

Here's another one for you. Is it wrong to despise fat people who use rascal wheelchairs at the grocery store when the very thing they need the most is a walk? This argument assumes they are not handicapped of course.

Is it ethical to cheat on an ethics training test?

AZ_IPA said:

Is it ethical to cheat on an ethics training test?

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Yeah, you're good to go!

Ok i have one... I have been traveling for work since August. Every week i fly to Chicago. We work in hotel meeting rooms. I always take the soaps, lotions, etc that are left out at the end of the day and stick them in my bag.

Just before Xmas time i took a GARBAGE BAG FULL of lotions, soaps, shampoos, conditioners, tooth brushes, tooth pastes, mouth wash, etc to the local homeless shelter.

Am i a stealing if hotels set them out for us to use but i take them to donate to the homeless?

I would personally say that so long as you arent taking more than is set out for you (ie claiming falsely that you have used what was set out and require more), than you are using amenities that are included in the price of your room. As such, you are free to keep and use as you please.

The fact that you brought them to a shelter is good on you.

I bought an extra propane tank from HD. The gal charged me the price of a refill. I told her that was not the correct price. She double checked it again on her cashier machine and said yes this is the correct price. I ended up getting the tank for probably 15 bucks less than it should have been.

Carried it to my car, felt guilty and pulled up to the outdoor garden section of HD. I talked to her again and said I'm really sure this is not the correct price for a new tank. She assured me it was. She was wrong, I felt a bit guilty. But I do own the tank now. I felt pretty crappy about the whole situation but in the end took the tank home for a bargain price.

What should I have done differently?

I personally think Dan did all he could. This reminds me of the time I bought groceries and realized that an onion I planned to purchase was at the bottom of my reusable bag... and wasnt on the receipt. I walked 2 blocks back to the store with the onion and explained what happened. I forget if they rung it up or let me have the $0.30 onion... but I did get a smile and a thank you.

CG, great thread.

Aren't you up a little late tonight. I don't mean past your bedtime kinda thing. It's just most of the posts/threads I see from you are during the day. Vacation?

Ethics are always tricky. I think my coursebook's definition sums it up when it states that "Ethics is a set of beliefs about right and wrong behavior within a society. Ethical behavior conforms to generally accepted norms—many of which are almost universal. However, although nearly everyone would agree that lying and cheating are unethical, opinions about what constitutes ethical behavior can vary dramatically."

Everyone's ethics could be different because it would be based on how that person was raised, what events they have experienced, and how opinionated they are about expressing those beliefs and experiences. While I think that accessing the neighbors wireless when my router died is wrong, I do not feel strongly enough about it to say it is wrong for everyone else because I don't think I can accurately predict how I would act walking in someone else's shoes.

I hope CG can let me know if I'm crossing the line with this one.

My interwebs crawls. I need to steal me some wifi.

Similar situation to Dan. Was at the local brewery a couple times recently and felt like they undercharge. In fact, I knew they left of at least 1 drink on one occasion and multiple drinks on another. I know several people that would have paid and left. I told them about it, paid full price, and got hooked up later on. Honesty has its rewards.

Ok, I'll bite and I even got one that is beer related. So I have a friend who goes to Northern Brewer and Midwest and almost always buys either Golden Promise or Maris Otter as a basemalt and marks it down as regular old Rahr 2-Row which can save a bit of money especially if brewing a big beer like the 27# Barleywine he did the other week. I did it once (ok, I did it twice) and felt moderately bad about it. Ethical? Or just skimming profit off a company that makes enough and keeps money in our relatively tight pockets?

I like the onion story. Good for you.

Not to get too serious, but one of the more interesting hypothetical situations I have heard posed goes like this:

You walk by a river and you see your pet dog and a complete stranger drowning. You can only save one. What's your choice?

inhousebrew said:

Ok, I'll bite and I even got one that is beer related. So I have a friend who goes to Northern Brewer and Midwest and almost always buys either Golden Promise or Maris Otter as a basemalt and marks it down as regular old Rahr 2-Row which can save a bit of money especially if brewing a big beer like the 27# Barleywine he did the other week. I did it once (ok, I did it twice) and felt moderately bad about it. Ethical? Or just skimming profit off a company that makes enough and keeps money in our relatively tight pockets?

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I think I'd have to call that one theft by deception.

opus345.

Can't speak for CG.

I really like your words

I don't think I can accurately predict how I would act walking in someone else's shoes.

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There is infinite wisdom and humbleness in what you said. To many times I judge. Doesn't mean I'm right, far from it mostly.

/I've been driving a car for 32 years. I'm a decent and sometimes aggressive driver. Road rage, yea I get that sometimes. My favorite saying when driving while stuck behind somebody going slow is "gas pedal is on the right". As my kids have gotten older and are now driving I try to think before I get upset. Maybe that car in front of me is my daughter who is just learning to drive and doesn't have the experience I do, still learning. That cools off my impatience.\

Sorry, CG, for disrupting this thread and I apologize to you too, opus345. Nothing you said made me go on this rant. Did that on my own.

Dan said:

I bought an extra propane tank from HD. The gal charged me the price of a refill. I told her that was not the correct price. She double checked it again on her cashier machine and said yes this is the correct price. I ended up getting the tank for probably 15 bucks less than it should have been.

Carried it to my car, felt guilty and pulled up to the outdoor garden section of HD. I talked to her again and said I'm really sure this is not the correct price for a new tank. She assured me it was. She was wrong, I felt a bit guilty. But I do own the tank now. I felt pretty crappy about the whole situation but in the end took the tank home for a bargain price.

What should I have done differently?

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I'd say you went above and beyond to point out their error. You aren't a manager there - are you?

Time to cross-pollinate the ethical threads.

Posted by CG, "Sure, but you would agree that this is and ethical misdemeanor, not an ethical felony?"

I really like that concept, but to run with it, we would need a legislature to define what is a misdemeanor and what is a felony. Then we would need an ethics enforcement group to determine when individuals violated the ethical rules, etc.

inhousebrew said:

Ok, I'll bite and I even got one that is beer related. So I have a friend who goes to Northern Brewer and Midwest and almost always buys either Golden Promise or Maris Otter as a basemalt and marks it down as regular old Rahr 2-Row which can save a bit of money especially if brewing a big beer like the 27# Barleywine he did the other week. I did it once (ok, I did it twice) and felt moderately bad about it. Ethical? Or just skimming profit off a company that makes enough and keeps money in our relatively tight pockets?

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This crosses the line from unethical to illegal. I AM NOT JUDGING JUST CLARIFYING. If you go into a local store and remove the price tag from a less expensive item and apply it to a more expensive item and get caught you WILL go to jail for shoplifting. If a clerk mistakenly under charges you, you try to correct it and they argue that the price is correct. The ethical question is do you speak to a superior to rectify the situation. Again, I AM NOT JUDGING as I have done both (the price switch and arguing about the wrong price). I did sleep better when it was the wrong price as opposed to the price switch.

Interesting topic. I think the grain issue above is defintely theft. If they are assuming you are working on the "honor system" and you are knowingly deceiving them, that is theft. I will have to think in this one a bit. I'm sure i can come up with an ethical dilemna.

inhousebrew said:

Ok, I'll bite and I even got one that is beer related. So I have a friend who goes to Northern Brewer and Midwest and almost always buys either Golden Promise or Maris Otter as a basemalt and marks it down as regular old Rahr 2-Row which can save a bit of money especially if brewing a big beer like the 27# Barleywine he did the other week. I did it once (ok, I did it twice) and felt moderately bad about it. Ethical? Or just skimming profit off a company that makes enough and keeps money in our relatively tight pockets?

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That's straight up theft.

I'll refrain from mentioning kegs... :cross:

About 20 years ago I did the price tag switch. I removed the sticker off a cheap bottle of wine and placed it on an expensive bottle of scotch. Did it bug me back then? Not to much. Do I remember it now 20 years later? Yes! Wish I wouldn't have done that. Really do. People change over the years. Being YD and full of C, and naive we make mistakes. Learning from them is what makes us old and wise.

Cbaddad said:

You walk by a river and you see your pet dog and a complete stranger drowning. You can only save one. What's your choice?

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I'd save the person of course, but for selfish reasons. My job would consider it Line of Duty if anything happened to me as long as I was attempting to save a person, the dog, not so much.

Airborneguy said:

I'll refrain from mentioning kegs... :cross:

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Or Milk Crates

Is it still Line of Duty if there was no person and you drowned trying to save the pooch?

For the record, i wasn't judging the grain comment i know i've done the same thing at some point. Young and stupid.

So heres one for you. A friends wife is heavily involved in the PTA. She stores a lot of the things at her house, i.e. plastic cups, plastic ware, plates, etc. once the functions are complete and there are remaining items, she sometimes uses them. The PTA paid for the items for a specific function and these are the leftovers. Ethical or unethical?

Cbaddad said:

You walk by a river and you see your pet dog and a complete stranger drowning. You can only save one. What's your choice?

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I'd save my dog because in this day and age you might still get sued for rescuing the stranger

Ethical. She provided free storage so the PTA didn't pay for that. What little is left and not needed she can use.

maxamuus said:

Is it still Line of Duty if there was no person and you drowned trying to save the pooch?

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I'm sure my union would try, but I don't think so. Legally, pets are property.

maxamuus said:

Ok i have one... I have been traveling for work since August. Every week i fly to Chicago. We work in hotel meeting rooms. I always take the soaps, lotions, etc that are left out at the end of the day and stick them in my bag.

Just before Xmas time i took a GARBAGE BAG FULL of lotions, soaps, shampoos, conditioners, tooth brushes, tooth pastes, mouth wash, etc to the local homeless shelter.

Am i a stealing if hotels set them out for us to use but i take them to donate to the homeless?

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You're kinda like Robin Hood

Yup, but i dont wear tights.

Funny thing is i am always in nice hotels like the Westin, Hyatt, Marriott etc. So the homeless in my town are using top of the line personal hygine products and i am using the 99 cent Pert Plus or whatever the cheap a$$ shampoo it is that i buy.

WildGingerBrewing said:

So heres one for you. A friends wife is heavily involved in the PTA. She stores a lot of the things at her house, i.e. plastic cups, plastic ware, plates, etc. once the functions are complete and there are remaining items, she sometimes uses them. The PTA paid for the items for a specific function and these are the leftovers. Ethical or unethical?

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Can't really judge. While I would feel justified that my effort and work would make it justified to use the leftovers, I would also not do it thinking that it could be viewed as being inapropriate and violating trust of the association. Now if you add more info to the scenario that this has been a standard way of hanlding the leftovers, well then....

inhousebrew said:

Ok, I'll bite and I even got one that is beer related. So I have a friend who goes to Northern Brewer and Midwest and almost always buys either Golden Promise or Maris Otter as a basemalt and marks it down as regular old Rahr 2-Row which can save a bit of money especially if brewing a big beer like the 27# Barleywine he did the other week. I did it once (ok, I did it twice) and felt moderately bad about it. Ethical? Or just skimming profit off a company that makes enough and keeps money in our relatively tight pockets?

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most retailers consider that theft....many prosecute it! Now in a "self serve" situation it is also clearly unethical.

Here's another. You have good job, making a good salary. Your company treats you very well and in return you really put in the extra effort. You have an expense account. Sometimes when you and your friends go for drinks and you are broke, you expense the tab. Your friends are also customers but this was not business. Ethical? How bout taking your wife to lunch and expensing it as a business lunch?

Good example, but I would bet most serious companies already have this covered under the business conduct policies. Mine does and clearly states that those actions are taboo.

opus345 said:

Good example, but I would bet most serious companies already have this covered under the business conduct policies. Mine does and clearly states that those actions are taboo.

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The friends/customers or the wife? With my old company, which i hated, i would take my wife for lunch ince in awhile. I did feel guilty about it at times. The guilt, to me, is what shows it is unethical. The friends/ customers i dont see as being unethical since they do give you business and technically they are customers. Taking advantage of it would be unethical to me.

Usually it comes down to what the company will reimburse after filing the expense report. I haven't seen full reimbursement of a CC in some time. I think SOX and the IRS have had a huge impact on the controls being utilized.

I have a free Metrocard due to my employment. We were basically told that as long as it was in our hands, we could use it however we wanted. Basically, I can't give it to my wife to commute to work, but I can put her on the train every day if I do the swiping.

When we first got it, I went to a minor league baseball game with a friend. The booth at the station was closed for repairs, so they had a guy standing there and he was being a real jerk to people who didn't have exact change for him to swipe them through. I cut to the front of the line and showed him my ID, then proceeded to swipe about 20 people through the turnstile. That felt good.

(PS, Creamy, DON'T EVEN ASK!!!!)

Dan said:

CG, great thread.

Aren't you up a little late tonight. I don't mean past your bedtime kinda thing. It's just most of the posts/threads I see from you are during the day. Vacation?

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Posting during the day for CG usually means he's wasting time at work. There's your ethics question! Is making the HBT community collectively smile with hilarious posts on your employer's time ethical? To me, yes sir! and carry on...