Mystery of the disappearing head

Ok brewing geeks! I've got one for you that I haven't been able to solve and it's driving me more nuts than I usually am. I've got a case of "disappearing head syndrome" but in a very unique way. But first the back story:

Brewed a 12 gallon batch of doppelbock, split it into two different carboys, fermented them out side by side. Put one in one corny and set it into my lager center (kegerator), the other one I condensed off about 1.5 gallons to make my eisbock and lagered that. Carbed up both at the same PSI to get 2.4 units at the same time using the set and wait method, then cleaned my tap lines and tapped the kegs. It's now been two weeks.

The eisbock has a small head that lingers a little bit, no problem. But the doppelbock, when poured, created a head that instantly and audibly fizzes off into oblivion. It can't be glassware issue (ie: soapy glasses), it can't be a residue in my keg issue (I'm very anal about these things...work in a brewery after all and do it for a living), it can't be residue in the tap lines as anything left in it (which also is nothing) would have been flushed out by now......I'm at a loss. I almost don't want to serve it to my friends only on the fact that I'm not happy with the disappearing head. It tastes great though....grrrrrrrr......any thoughts from the wonderful people here?

I'm curious..

Double_D said:

I'm curious..

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As am I. This things got me stumped. All my other taps are pouring good head. It's just this one.

I thought it was going to be called merriage.

Recipe?

Was there any blow off on either one?

ReverseApacheMaster said:

Recipe?

Was there any blow off on either one?

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Sorry, I don't share recipes. But, that being said, it's the same recipe I used last year (last years batch had a nice head) and it's got enough Carapils in it and other cystal malts that there SHOULD be a head.

When I ferment I always throw a blow off tube on it but it wasn't needed on this batch. Bunch of Krausen but not enough to reach the tube.

imaguitargod said:

Sorry, I don't share recipes.

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Well now I'm more curious as to why you don't share recipes... What are you worried about?

ciphin78 said:

Well now I'm more curious as to why you don't share recipes... What are you worried about?

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we'll STEAL 'EM!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!

ciphin78 said:

Well now I'm more curious as to why you don't share recipes... What are you worried about?

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Possibly that you might be able to give him some proper advice.....

Ya know, lots of people pay a lot of money to have their head dissapear. Some even get married.

If he gave you a recipe then you'd be able to make your head disappear and a lot of noise would be made when your head disappeared.

Wait, what?

It's not just us you want to watch out for

This is strange.. You mentioned your other taps work correctly are they the same hardware and line length? Could you push this beer through another tap to rule out the hardware?

The only time I have had this problem was when I made an overly sweet porter that I used too much lactose.

Good luck and if solved please let me know.

imaguitargod said:

Sorry, I don't share recipes.

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Then why expect help?


_

Wow, some people here are real pricks.

HempelNet said:

This is strange.. You mentioned your other taps work correctly are they the same hardware and line length? Could you push this beer through another tap to rule out the hardware?

The only time I have had this problem was when I made an overly sweet porter that I used too much lactose.

Good luck and if solved please let me know.

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Thanks for a nice response to my question. It's all the same hardware and length. I've been meaning to swtich tap lines to a different keg to see if the problem exists there, but haven't had the chance.

Hey- I haven't "seen" you around lately! This is off-topic, but I'm coming for a visit June 30-July 5. Any chance my dad and I could get a brewery tour from you? Let me know- it's a while away, but you might disappear again!

Yooper said:

Hey- I haven't "seen" you around lately! This is off-topic, but I'm coming for a visit June 30-July 5. Any chance my dad and I could get a brewery tour from you? Let me know- it's a while away, but you might disappear again!

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Sure thing Yooper! Give me a heads up when the date comes closer and we'll see what my schedule is! Shoot me an email though because I'm about done with this site. I never get a straight answer from people when I ask a question and people now have gotten all hissy and defensive because I don't share my recipes. As a great resource as this is, there's a bunch of people that are ruining it.

I wondering if when you condensed down to 4.5 gal from 6 if it might have led to a concentration of something in the beer that would inhibit head retention? As I understand it, evaporation (which is what occurred when you condensed it down - right?) causes a decrease in alkalinity. Or the inverse is an increase in acidity. Would the concentration of acids reach a threshold where it would lop off the head?

I don't know - you'll have to ask a physicist or a chemist for that answer.

Have you ever done that condensation process before?

My guess is the keg with the doppelbock has a co2 leak. If both kegs had the same pressure for the same amount of time and one didnt carbonate as much as the other, then I dont see what else it could be. One question though....was co2 applied to the eisbock while being condensed? I could see where the eisbock would absorb more co2 while being condensed.

Here is why people get upset you wont share the recipe, in analogy form.

My car wont stay on, can you help me? Oh yeah, I dont allow people to look under the hood.

I really wasn't trying to be a "prick". I just wanted to know why the guy doesn't share recipes. While I don't work in a brewery and I'm certainly no brewing god, my 2 cents are that just because someone has a recipe does not mean they can brew the beer. There are a bunch of really great breweries that have no problem telling you exactly what's in the beer...and if you think you can brew it just as good, go for it. Same recipe + different person + different equipment + different process != Same beer.

Great Lakes?

You didn't specifically mention it but but did you use the same yeast for both fermenters? Exact same pitch rate? Equivalent aeration for both? The fermentations were identical?

What about the actual wort that made it into the two fermenters? Did one get uber-clear wort while the other got some trub? Any other differences you can think of?

IMO, recipes are just recipes and don't make great beer. The fact that OP brewed what he considered to be a 'good' recipe (i.e. good enough to keep secret) and still didn't get stellar beer is just another example of that. It wasn't the recipe that caused poor head retention, it was the PROCESS. It may not be in the spirit of a free exchange of information that many expect from this site but it certainly is no loss to the brewing community/HBT. Although I must admit, it IS the reason I hadn't responded to this thread earlier and I presume others as well.

If he doesn't want to post recipes he's developed on the internet for everyone to see, that's his prerogative. I am sure he knows there is more to great beer than the recipe, he works in a commercial brewery. If that means some folks won't help him out, so be it. We should still be able to treat each other with respect either way.

Some commercial breweries share their recipes, and some don't. No big deal.

One of our former Sous Chef's at work gave me his pizza recipe when he left. I had to swear on a stack of Bibles I would never share with anyone. He was a great guy (and he made the best pizza I've ever tasted), he just didn't want it passed around the other chefs in our cafe.

But you cant help someone troubleshoot with out some sort of details.

So if the eisbock has a small head that lingers a bit, how big is the head on the dopplebock before it fizzes away? I'm imagining what a can of pop does when you pour it at room temperature, which I've never seen beer do before, especially on tap.

You've obviously got plenty of experience so I hope this doesn't sound stupid... but have you tried turning up the carbonation a bit? If so, what happens? Big head that dissipates just as fast?

I say kudos on not sharing recipes. it's infuriating to watch a bunch of strangers who may-or-may-not know what they're talking about tear apart your tried and true recipe.

If it is infurating posting here then why post here?

imaguitargod said:

Sure thing Yooper! Give me a heads up when the date comes closer and we'll see what my schedule is! Shoot me an email though because I'm about done with this site. I never get a straight answer from people when I ask a question and people now have gotten all hissy and defensive because I don't share my recipes. As a great resource as this is, there's a bunch of people that are ruining it.

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joety said:

If he doesn't want to post recipes he's developed on the internet for everyone to see, that's his prerogative. I am sure he knows there is more to great beer than the recipe, he works in a commercial brewery. If that means some folks won't help him out, so be it. We should still be able to treat each other with respect either way.

Some commercial breweries share their recipes, and some don't. No big deal.

One of our former Sous Chef's at work gave me his pizza recipe when he left. I had to swear on a stack of Bibles I would never share with anyone. He was a great guy (and he made the best pizza I've ever tasted), he just didn't want it passed around the other chefs in our cafe.

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This. No one requires ANY of us to post. Remember the golden rule? My mom used to tell me that if I didn't have something nice to say to "shut your piehole". I'm sure she meant that in the most loving way of course.

Jonathon, if you're still reading this thread, shoot me a PM with your email (can't find it). And remember that this site is a pretty nice place. With 60,000 members on here, you don't have to like everybody to get along just fine!

Yoop, I agree with your analysis - to an extent. The fellow posted asking for troubleshooting. Yes, some got a bit snippy. However, I do believe the posters asking for more information have a very real point.

Jonathon,

imaguitargod said:

I never get a straight answer from people when I ask a question and people now have gotten all hissy and defensive because I don't share my recipes.

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Weeellll...if you want a straight answer, in my experience the best approach is to give a straight answer.

As a professional brewer, you know how impossible it is to troubleshoot an issue like this without having all relevant information to hand. You know how important ingredients and process are to things like foam formation/retention (or at least you should). For example, there are all kinds of technique approaches to different ingredients that can make or break foam. If you're using a malt which benefits from step mashing and you're doing a single infusion, that can have a big impact on foam. That's usually where it starts with foam problems - in the mash, not lines and glassware. If you haven't set up the foam precursors in your mash, that which comes after won't make the slightest difference.

I, for one, can't begin to confidently troubleshoot without knowing the answers to your process and ingredients. I'll think out loud, however, and hope it helps, though it's throwing, er, stuff against the wall.

It sounds like a protein problem. Given the eisbock has foam - however small - and given that the eisbock is a concentrated form of the problematic bock, it sounds like the concentration process is also concentrating the foam-enhancing whatevers, too. Perhaps a closer look at the malt analysis and examination of your mashing process is in order.

I do wish you luck!

Cheers,

Bob

sheesh, no need to attack the guy, are people here to help or tear others down with their 'superior' knowledge?

I do understand there are many that could impact the head, including many process and recipe variables that are extremely difficult to troubleshoot without more detailed information, so help is going to be limited. But I certainly don't feel wronged should you withhold certain info - I'm sure you have your reasons.

To the OP, if you've checked all other variables (CO2 content, leaks, residue in the keg, glassware etc) then perhaps it really does come back to your process/recipe. The proteins would likely concentrate in the Eisbock, helping the head out a bit there. I have an extensive chart of process variables affecting foam stability - hopefully at least narrow down the list of what your issue may be if you're convinced all is equal on the serving end.. and if nothing makes sense, well, time to do another test run/bock! let me know if you need to dispose of your 'head-less' bock.. I'm more than accepting of such flaws

I think the reason that people arent used not used to not getting recipes is because recipes are shared so much around here. This is a DIY forum.

Think of it at open source software. Or even better, think of your reluctance as DRM. We aren't pirates here.

Maybe next time mention some of the main grains instead of just the carapils. Saying you used flour and salt in chocolate chip cookies reveals nothing.

You can keep your secrets, it is just different around here.