Propane indoors

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Brewer3401

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I just realized propane is not to be used indoors.

Anyone use propane in an enclosed area ?

If so, how do handle ventilation ?

Thanks
 
Yeah...Carbon Monoxide is badd, mmmkay?

Some crazy bastid around here, don't remember who exactly, had this setup with vent hoods and all kinds of wackyness...and a CO detector too. It seems like a lot of work just to avoid having to brew outside, but hey...if you really wanna brew inside.
 
Just get good ventilation. You're going to want that for sure anyway if you're boiling off a gallon on wort. Nothing wrong with propane or NG inside - lots of homes have ranges that use one or the other.

Get a good fan and vent outside....
 
Brewer3401 said:
Anyone use propane in an enclosed area ?

If so, how do handle ventilation ?

Thanks

sorta kinda...I run my burner in a cellar outside stairwell with the bilco doors adjusted for conditions (open wider on nice days, less so on rainy days). A whole house fan supplies the ventilation, moving a rather massive amount of air up and out through the doors.
 
Here is BierMuncher boiling away in his basement. He puts a box fan up in the window for ventilation. Seems OK to me.

7451-Me_Brewing.jpg
 
Carbon monoxide detectors are relatively inexpensive and well worth the peace of mind.

So is ventilation.

I too, have a propane stove top and oven.
 
I believe NG burns completely and cleanly, while propane does not.
 
All I know is this ugly keggle...

Keggle_3.JPG

Used indoors in this ugly brewshop...notice exhaust fan in window...

IndoorBrew_4.JPG

Brewed this beautiful house ale...

HappyFri_4.jpg

Seriously though, I take the exhaust issue very deriously. My old man nearly gave up the ghost about 15 years ago with an emergency generator issue.

(Storm causes power to go out, heavy rain begins to flood lower garage, generator is turned on in the garage to run pumps, dad goes to garage to check on things, steps in 6 inches of water, touches generator, gets shocked unconscious, passes out and proceeds to inhale CO until mom goes down 15 minutes later and finds him a light shade of blue)

Took the para's 20 minutes to bring him back.

Trust me, I don't ever want to get tht "fuzzy face" feeling. Unless it's from my homebrew....:D
 
When it's too cold or the wind is blowing, I'll prop the garage door open a few inches to brew. Since that gives me top & bottom vents, no problem. I would never use my turkey burner with the door shut, as it is just about impossible to get a quality flame. Maybe when I switch to the hurricane.
 
A little common sense is your best guide:

You don't want to ventilate - you are an outdoor brewer.
Your indoors is cluttered with paint thinner,gas cans and fireworks - you are an outdoor brewer.
Your only free brewing space is the livingroom shag rug - you are an outdoor brewer.
You like to get drunk and pass out while brewing - you are definitely an outdoor brewer.

and so on...lol
 
Brewer3401 said:
I just realized propane is not to be used indoors.

Anyone use propane in an enclosed area ?

If so, how do handle ventilation ?

Thanks


I have done it with some ventilation, open window and fan in the winter in upstate NY. NO problems I am still alive. The only reason I quit was because of the wife. It was much easier to move outside and just drink more beer than listen to that constant nagging. haha:mug:
 
If I'm not mistaken a high powered burn puts out way more co2 than a stove NG or propane even with multiple burners on because on a stove almost all of the gas if not all is burned while on a burn it isn't.
 
Sh*t man, do it all the time.... I have a ridge vent on each end of the brew shack, and an AC unit to bring in fresh cooled air. Wurks for mee.......:)
 
OldFarmer said:
Sh*t man, do it all the time.... I have a ridge vent on each end of the brew shack, and an AC unit to bring in fresh cooled air. Wurks for mee.......:)

Definetely will have an A/C unit, and super insulated. I guess just a vent fan to pull out air will work.

Also will have double doors on 2 walls, so in cool weather, can just crack open a door.

Thanks to all for the help and advice.
 
joshpooh said:
If I'm not mistaken a high powered burn puts out way more co2 than a stove NG or propane even with multiple burners on because on a stove almost all of the gas if not all is burned while on a burn it isn't.


Right. CO is a product of incomplete combustion. Indoor gas appliances are designed specifically to prevent incomplete combustion, outdoor appliances are not. To make matters worse, the high utilization rate of our burners depletes the oxygen in enclosed spaces. Not only is this hazardous to your health, it also reduces available oxygen for the burn causing MORE incomplete combustion.

I know some of you do it and haven't yet had a problem, but that doesn't make it safe. Particularly in recessed environments like a basement. If you insist on brewing indoors, for God's sake, spend $20 on a CO detector and replace it as directed.
 
I know some of you do it and haven't yet had a problem, but that doesn't make it safe. Particularly in recessed environments like a basement. If you insist on brewing indoors, for God's sake, spend $20 on a CO detector and replace it as directed.[/quote]

Yes, CO dector is in the budget. I'm an ex oilfield worker and know about H2S and other nasty stuff. I don't skimp on safety.

But, if I can get SWMBO to let me run a NG line, I'll just drill out my propane burners and convert them to NG.
 
Brewer3401 said:
CO dector is in the budget. I'm an ex oilfield worker and know about H2S and other nasty stuff. I don't skimp on safety.

True, but don't forget about those in the shallow end of the gene pool who read this thread and assume that indoor boils are safe thing to do. They are not. With proper precautions, you can reduce the risk of a disaster but you can never eliminate it.

IMHO, it just not worth it to risk leaving my children fatherless...
 
pldoolittle said:
True, but don't forget about those in the shallow end of the gene pool who read this thread and assume that indoor boils are safe thing to do. They are not. With proper precautions, you can reduce the risk of a disaster but you can never eliminate it.

IMHO, it just not worth it to risk leaving my children fatherless...

Correct. There is a warning label on propane burners stating NOT to use indoors. It's too easy to screw up.
 
pldoolittle said:
With proper precautions, you can reduce the risk of a disaster but you can never eliminate it.
The same situation as driving to work, bicycling, kayaking, etc....

If you maintain good air flow in your area, you will not encounter issues with O2 depletion or CO. An equivalent BTU propane burner will not use more O2 than an indoor range of the same rating. CO production should not be appreciably high either, and accumulation should be negligable so long as you ventilate.
 
This guy's web page can clear up some common misconceptions about Natural Gas and Propane if anyone is interested:

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infgas.html

ie: Natural gas is a mixture of gases methane, propane, butane, carbonmonoxide and hydrogen.

LP (propane) is a more consistant product and propane appliances can be designed to be more efficient than natural gas appliances.

IMHO the warnings on portable propane burners are there for 3 reasons:

1.There are a bunch of people that do stupid things. (every year people put gasoline into their kerosine heaters or run them w/o ventilation)
2. People that do stupid things have a tendency to be litigious and want others to pay them for their own stupidity.
3. To reduce or mitigate the liability in a lawsuit.

Edit: I just thought of a 4th reason,

Many if not most of these things are used as turkey fryers and the potential for a grease fire is very real. A grease fire outside is bad but an inside grease fire is usually a disaster.
 
mr x said:
If you maintain good air flow in your area, you will not encounter issues with O2 depletion or CO. An equivalent BTU propane burner will not use more O2 than an indoor range of the same rating. CO production should not be appreciably high either, and accumulation should be negligable so long as you ventilate.


Respectfully, you are just wrong.

CO is heavier than air and will collect appreciably in low points. Cracking a vent window that's 3-8ft off the floor and affixing a fan will not fix that as it only circulates the upper air layers.

As for the stove, you are correct that it will not use more O2 than an equivalent stove. But, a stove burner is 9-12k BTU. A propane cooker is 55-210k BTU. So, unless you plan on firing up all the burners on multiple stoves you will consume much more O2 than a stove.... High gas consumption stoves (like a restaurant) have HUGE vent a hoods (1500-5000CFM) that draw in outside air.

You said "CO production should not be appreciably high either". Not correct. It is very high. CO production from a typical 9-12k propane burner ranges from 2-15000 cc/hr. At 55-210k, that is approximately 12k (min)-640k (max) cc/hr. In a 10x20 basement, that equates to 180-9600 PPM in just one hour. OSHA defines 35 ppm as unsafe for long term exposure (8 hrs) and 200ppm as an unsafe for any period. Above 2500 ppm can cause unconsciousness and above 4000ppm can be fatal within minutes. Cut all those in half if you smoke. Now that you know the hazardous levels, ask yourself this. Is your burner the 180ppm one, or the 6180ppm one?

Now that we have a lot of theory, let's talk real world at bit. You're cooking away in your basement HAHB. The fire is hot, the beer is cold, and CO levels at head hight are minimal. All is well. BUT, down near the floor, CO levels are high. 4000+ ppm and climbing. You squat down to do a little bottling, mop up a spill, or find that airlock you just dropped. Almost immediately, you feel a little dizzy. Before you can realize that the dizziness wasn't just from getting up to fast, you black out. Now, you are laying on the floor sucking in raw CO. Your wort boils over, but you don't care. You are already dead. The fire continues to burn. Levels in the whole basement rise above 4000ppm. The wife comes home. When you don't answer, she comes down to check on you....

You can try and make yourself feel better about your procedures, but carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real problem that kills hundreds of people every year. I just checked Google news for the last 30 days, and there were new 285 stories that matched "Carbon Monoxide poisoning"
 
Most of that post is wrong, misleading and spurious as well. Plain and simple.

Paragraph 1: You are assuming no air movement. Wrong. Who advocated that?
Paragraph 2: You are assuming a gas range uses less propane that a burner. Wrong. The propane range at the cottage uses way more than my portable burner.
Paragraph 3: The CO production from my range is more than my burner, yet is very safe. And you make no calculations for air venting. Sigh.
Paragraph 4: Fear mongering.
Paragraph 5: People die all kinds of things. Should you stop going outside? No, you educate yourself and understand what is around you and how it can be used safely.
 
I think we need to discuss where carbon monoxide (CO) comes from:

With an adequite supply of oxygen (O2) combustion of hydrocabon based fuel makes mostly water (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2) .

It's when the oxygen levels drops and combustion is incomplete that carbon monoxide (CO) is produced.

So the object of ventilation is mainly to keep an adequite supply of oxygen for the combustion process to consume.
 
I'm not an expert in any of these matters - but it strikes me that a propane kitchen range is going to run a LOT cleaner than any turner fryer or Banjo Cooker or any other appliance designed to be used outdoors. I'm constantly having to fiddle with the burner to get a clean, blue flame, and oftentimes it's an impossible task; I get it as good as I can. IIRC, carbon monoxide arises primarily as a result of incomplete combustion. Comparing the BTUs on a turkey fryer to the BTUs kicked out by a kitched stove is therefore meaningless.

Or, I'm dead wrong and bat-**** insane, as usual (prolly inhaling too much CO!)
 
All I know is that with my box fan installed as an exhaust, and a window cracked open upstairs for fresh-air-in, there's a slight breeze at my feet standing next to the keggle and the flames are flickering yellow and "leaning" with the breeze.

My shop is at the bottom of the basement steps so the air being pulled in tends to whoosh in at floor level and then work accross the brew set up and then up and out the window.

If I didn't think I could get literally a "cross wind" in my shop, I wouldn't flick my bic.

EDIT - Oh, and I have a 210,000 BTU Banjo. But who in their right mind ever runs that thing at full tilt. Once I get up to boil, I have that thing set down to about a 1/2 inch flame to keep a rolling boil, but avoid boil over.
 
the_bird said:
I'm not an expert in any of these matters - but it strikes me that a propane kitchen range is going to run a LOT cleaner than any turner fryer or Banjo Cooker or any other appliance designed to be used outdoors. I'm constantly having to fiddle with the burner to get a clean, blue flame, and oftentimes it's an impossible task; I get it as good as I can. IIRC, carbon monoxide arises primarily as a result of incomplete combustion. Comparing the BTUs on a turkey fryer to the BTUs kicked out by a kitched stove is therefore meaningless.

Or, I'm dead wrong and bat-**** insane, as usual (prolly inhaling too much CO!)
I personally have never had a problem with my burner. The flame is so blue I have to get down and look closely to make sure it's burning. CO is a direct cause of incomplete combustion, so if you have a poor flame on your burner, CO production comparisons won't matter. The BTUs won't mean much in that sense.
 
BierMuncher said:
All I know is that with my box fan installed as an exhaust, and a window cracked open upstairs for fresh-air-in, there's a slight breeze at my feet standing next to the keggle and the flames are flickering yellow and "leaning" with the breeze.

My shop is at the bottom of the basement steps so the air being pulled in tends to whoosh in at floor level and then work accross the brew set up and then up and out the window.

If I didn't think I could get literally a "cross wind" in my shop, I wouldn't flick my bic.

Personally speaking, I'm glad to hear it.
You can see where that information just doesn't translate from the box fan picture. The airflow from the stairs is really critical in making sense of it.
 
olllllo said:
Personally speaking, I'm glad to hear it.
You can see where that information just doesn't translate from the box fan picture. The airflow from the stairs is really critical in making sense of it.
Yep. Trust me, I did the ole lit match test to make sure of a good drag of air through the basement door. My house is pretty air tight, so when that upstairs window is open...once I turn the exhaust fan on downstairs, the curtains upstairs come to life with a breeze.
 
the_bird said:
I'm not an expert in any of these matters - but it strikes me that a propane kitchen range is going to run a LOT cleaner than any turner fryer or Banjo Cooker or any other appliance designed to be used outdoors.

Yes. Designed for indoor use is an important distinction.

the_bird said:
Comparing the BTUs on a turkey fryer to the BTUs kicked out by a kitched stove is therefore meaningless.

Yes, I used CO data from propane heaters/cookers.
 
BierMuncher said:
All I know is that with my box fan installed as an exhaust, and a window cracked open upstairs for fresh-air-in, there's a slight breeze at my feet standing next to the keggle and the flames are flickering yellow and "leaning" with the breeze.

My shop is at the bottom of the basement steps so the air being pulled in tends to whoosh in at floor level and then work accross the brew set up and then up and out the window.

If I didn't think I could get literally a "cross wind" in my shop, I wouldn't flick my bic

BierMuncher,

While your pic initiated the discussion to some degree, this wasn't intended as a bash BM thread and I hope it didn't come off that way. Clearly, you have researched the issue, your equipment, your personal situation, and made an assessment that you have taken adequate precautions.

That said, I stand by my assesment. I don't do it, and I can't in good conscience recommend it to others. YMMV
 
abracadabra said:
I think we need to discuss where carbon monoxide (CO) comes from:

With an adequite supply of oxygen (O2) combustion of hydrocabon based fuel makes mostly water (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2) .

It's when the oxygen levels drops and combustion is incomplete that carbon monoxide (CO) is produced.

So the object of ventilation is mainly to keep an adequite supply of oxygen for the combustion process to consume.


You are right that insufficient oxygen contributes to excess CO. But good air flow is not sufficient to prevent CO production. Combustion flame temperature, air/gas mixture homogenation, gas flow rate, gas moisture content, etc. Anything that prevents 100% combustion, contributes to CO production.

"Indoor" gas appliances burn the same gas and air as "outdoor" appliances. But, they are engineered to ensure complete combustion when doing so. That's one reason why almost all high consumption indoor appliances (like space heaters) use ceramic plates. It raises the combustion temperatures and decreases CO emissions. Or look at your stove for a minute. Lots of little holes, fixed mixture, low pressure gas. Compare that to your grill or burner. Fewer, bigger holes, adjustable mixture, significant gas flow.
 
olllllo said:
He's already off with a bowl of cereal, ripping the top off another keg.
Frosted Flakes. And this time, I'm using a butter knife. :D

pldoolittle said:
BierMuncher,

While your pic initiated the discussion to some degree, this wasn't intended as a bash BM thread and I hope it didn't come off that way...I can't in good conscience recommend it to others. YMMV

No problem. I didn't take it that way. I just wanted to make sure others reading this (including those considering doing so) didn't think I just decided to wheel the rig indoors, flip on the TV and start brewing.

This same argument will be revisited I'm sure when the temps turn really cold and people move their operation into the garage, four seasons porch, or detached workshop.

My philosophy, if there ain't enough breeze to blow your farts away, don't do it.
 
pldoolittle said:
You are right that insufficient oxygen contributes to excess CO. But good air flow is not sufficient to prevent CO production. Combustion flame temperature, air/gas mixture homogenation, gas flow rate, gas moisture content, etc. Anything that prevents 100% combustion, contributes to CO production.

"Indoor" gas appliances burn the same gas and air as "outdoor" appliances. But, they are engineered to ensure complete combustion when doing so. That's one reason why almost all high consumption indoor appliances (like space heaters) use ceramic plates. It raises the combustion temperatures and decreases CO emissions. Or look at your stove for a minute. Lots of little holes, fixed mixture, low pressure gas. Compare that to your grill or burner. Fewer, bigger holes, adjustable mixture, significant gas flow.


This isn't "rocket surgery" people;). Just like I said earlier, if someone takes some precaution and exercises common sense, then brewing inside (if that's what you wish) can be done quite safely. Propane is no more dangerous than natural gas (saying that it is just feeds a myth - not that you did).

Millions of homes in the US are still heated with propane and millions more use propane to cook with ... and there are some dwelling that even use propane to provide light (latern-style) that are perfectly fine & dandy. Hell, my hunting camp is lit with propane, uses propane to cook with (on a wood/propane stove that is probably older than most here), and it's right as rain.

Again, brewing indoors with a turkey fryer/fish fryer can be done quite safely. Be sure that you have adequate ventilation. What I used to do is brew right under a window (garden level - not true basement) with a window fan exhausting out and crack a window on the opposite side of the room. Also, be sure to pay proper attention to your brew pot, and, most importantly, that your flame is burning clean (blue flame - no red/orange).
 
pldoolittle said:
You are right that insufficient oxygen contributes to excess CO. But good air flow is not sufficient to prevent CO production. Combustion flame temperature, air/gas mixture homogenation, gas flow rate, gas moisture content, etc. Anything that prevents 100% combustion, contributes to CO production.

".
Yes you are right it is not sufficient to prevent any CO production.

However it is sufficient to prevent dangerous levels of CO build up. And if you read my earlier post you'll see where I also recommended a Carbon monoxide detection device for anyone attempting to brew inside.
 
Lots of great feedback - thanks to all.

Thinking: I couldn't brew in an enclosed area without sweating to death anyway.

Even if I used electric, the boiloff would swamp me with humidity.

I guess a good vent would be good, combined with a window A/C unit - the A/C unit pulls outside air in, and the exhaust fan pushes it out.

Sure the electric bill will show it, but I don't do this for a living.
 
I was thinking of adding a high flow bath vent to the ceiling in my brew area and then cracking a window on the other side. In cold weather, the incoming air being much colder than the house air is going to go right to the floor.

That and a CO sensor 12 inches or so off the floor should tell me if my air exchange is sufficient. my main reason for brewing downstairs is to keep everything in a small area with my hot tap water and sanitized stuff within reach.
 
missing link said:
I was thinking of adding a high flow bath vent to the ceiling in my brew area and then cracking a window on the other side. In cold weather, the incoming air being much colder than the house air is going to go right to the floor.

That and a CO sensor 12 inches or so off the floor should tell me if my air exchange is sufficient. my main reason for brewing downstairs is to keep everything in a small area with my hot tap water and sanitized stuff within reach.
What are the approximate room dimensions and what kind of burner are you using?

I'd add this, put your self a small oscillating fan on the floor to continually churn the air. If you're standing next to the burner and you have a cool breeze at your feet, there's not a lot of chance that CO2 is accumulating at excessive concentrations.

The name of the game is bad air out, good air in, and lots of breeze in between.
 
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