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carnevoodoo

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Hey guys. I was just wondering if there was a consensus on the kind of advice we should be giving here. I see occasional advice that is really the opposite of good practice, and it frankly annoys me.

I know everyone's methods are different, but there are certain things that just help give a better understanding of what we're doing and eventually making better beer. What do you all think?
 
Opinions on a wide variety of practices vary. There is usually more than one way to skin a cat.

What kinds of advice do you see that annoy you?
 
Opinions on a wide variety of practices vary. There is usually more than one way to skin a cat.

What kinds of advice do you see that annoy you?

The one that made me post this is telling people to not bother with their hydrometer. If someone is really trying to learn more about what they're doing, that is pretty horrible advice. They're going to be lost wondering if they beer is finished, or how strong it is, etc.

It just bothers me.
 
Hopefully people with good advice and concern like yourself can step in and correct them before soak up bad info. Other than that you can't really tell people what opinions, theories, or beliefs to share with other brewers.
 
Hopefully people with good advice and concern like yourself can step in and correct them before soak up bad info. Other than that you can't really tell people what opinions, theories, or beliefs to share with other brewers.

yeah. I suppose you're right. I really try to do things that improve practices and I am VERY interested in all the numbers. And I think that the basic understanding of that sort of things is nearly essential to improving process.
 
Sometimes people ask a question and cherry pick the information that affirms their current practice. Not everyone is looking to learn something new. Sometimes they just want to feel comfortable. Horse water drink thing.

Just be helpful. It's better to be helpful than "correct" in that situation.
 
I am new to brewing but not forums, I take most things I read with a grain of salt. Hopefully people that ask questions don't take posts as the entire truth. I wouldn't worry about it and just give the best advice that you know. When it comes down to it people are going to do what they want, right or wrong and you can't loose sleep over it. If you want some spicy forum advice hit up a sportbike forum and tell them you are getting a R1 or Gixxer 1000 for your first motorcycle.
 
Sometimes people ask a question and cherry pick the information that affirms their current practice. Not everyone is looking to learn something new. Sometimes they just want to feel comfortable. Horse water drink thing.

Just be helpful. It's better to be helpful than "correct" in that situation.

True... Not everyone here is seeking perfection, at least not yet.
 
There was a period of time that I didn't see the point of a hydrometer, and I probably would have said so for a variety of reasons. Now that I use it regularly, I realize that I didn't know what I was missing. Perhaps this is sometimes the case. Everyone is different, and some simply do not care about the particulars.
 
Yeah i saw that thread were like 4 people said u don't need a hydrometer. but hydrometers are so helpful when brewing i think somebody who is new to brewing should get in the habbit of using one
 
I wouldn't say such a thing, because I like to use every scientific instrument I can while brewing. However, you really don't need one...in fact I didn't use one for my first two brews and they came out great. When it comes to best practices you'll see that the majority will win out here since it is a large enough community with a lot of great knowledge. Everyone has their way of brewing, and we all end up with beer in the end...so RDWHAHB.

Oh, yeah...ask those guys who don't like hydrometers what their efficiency was on their last all grain batch! :D
 
Yes they are needed but have you seen my ultimate RDWHAHB thread?
Foolish? maybe. Fun, Experimental? Hell yeah.
I'm the first to say don't bother asking me to help if you don't use and Hydrometer.
Each to their own but don't ask me to agree with them.
 
Like someone else said, I'm no expert at brewing, but I've been posting to online forums for a long time(going all the way back to usenet, pre-web).

I agree that "bad advice" should be corrected as much as possible. At the same time, it might be prudent to remember that some "bad" advice may simply be a case of something where disagreement exists (ie aluminum vs. stainless brew pots).

Along those lines, it would be good for people to remember that they should disclaim such statements as something which people disagree on. Rather than say "Don't bother with using a hydrometer", a better response is "A lot of people say that using a hydrometer will provide you with valuable data, but I don't use one because ___________".
 
As a bit of a noob, I know that when I ask a question here, I usually am on the right track. I use responses to affirm that I am. If 10 people say 1 thing and 1 other says the opposite, I go with the masses. Lastly, people that give good advice usually draw from personal experience. Thier response is usually articulated better than a response of "nah, I don't use one and my beer is fine."
 
That's just the nature of the interweb and especially message boards.

Pro: A ton of info is readily available at your fingertips.

Con: Anyone can post whatever they want. It's the responsibility of the user to determine if the information is good or not.

And for the record: I made good extract beer without a hydrometer for several years. Now that I am all grain I use one all the time though. take it for what it's worth.
 
See, for me, that's part of what makes brewing fun. It's a craft, and, like a lot of other crafts, there are a lot of different ways to accomplish the same goal. Good brewers can differ in their approach, and still make good beer.

As far as the hydrometer issue, I can see the point for some new brewers in forgetting that a hydrometer exists. Why? Simple. My experience tells me that a long primary and no bulk aging is preferable to a short primary for low to mid-gravity beer.

The best way to ensure a long primary is to ignore the hydrometer, and just leave the beer in the primary for three weeks to a month. How many threads do we see where new brewers are cracking their fermenter every 12 hours to take a gravity? How necessary is it? For kit/extract brewing, OG and FG are all you really need.

Don't get me wrong -- I think a hydrometer is a VERY useful tool -- I just think that for beginners brewing from kits, it would be better to forget the hydrometer, and just let the yeast work for three to four weeks.
 
The nature of forums are that advice in any thread normalizes to the group concensus if you wait long enough. It's the same reason why WIKIs are more accurate than you'd imagine possible.
 
The thing that bothers me is when people think there advice is correct because they read it in JZ's book. Yes he is a very good brewer but he is one in thousands of brewers with information on a subject that he gets from his own personal experience. I like the way billtzk put it "There is usually more than one way to skin a cat" I recently told a noob not to use a hydrometer because fermentation had already started and I didn't see a point to go in to his beer and risk infection I also gave him the a reason for it's use and why I don't use them.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=77351
 
Bad advise is everywhere and I can understand the seasond brewers being annoyed when one novice is trying to give another novice advise but chances are they are just excited about thinking thay can help. Good thing for us less experienced the experts jump in with their opinions. Going with the majority is a good idea.
As far as the hydrometer goes I use one because I rarely brew the same brew so I am interested in the estimated alcohol content when done. To me brewing is like cooking. You can use a recipe, a measuring cup, a thermometer or estimate everything and either may come out good or bad and different each time. Even the oven or pan you use to cook with can change the outcome. One method you know exactly how much salt you put in, with the other you know about how much. But with either method it's the experienced cook that will probably make the better meal.
 
Yeah i saw that thread were like 4 people said u don't need a hydrometer. but hydrometers are so helpful when brewing i think somebody who is new to brewing should get in the habbit of using one

The best way to ensure a long primary is to ignore the hydrometer, and just leave the beer in the primary for three weeks to a month. How many threads do we see where new brewers are cracking their fermenter every 12 hours to take a gravity? How necessary is it? For kit/extract brewing, OG and FG are all you really need.

Don't get me wrong -- I think a hydrometer is a VERY useful tool -- I just think that for beginners brewing from kits, it would be better to forget the hydrometer, and just let the yeast work for three to four weeks.

Oh, yeah...ask those guys who don't like hydrometers what their efficiency was on their last all grain batch! :D

My issue, as my last blog adressed, is that inexperienced brewers are more and more, doing things like racking or repitching yeast as a kneejerk "panic" reaction, because they think something's wrong. But for whatever reason they don't use the very tool that will tell them that, more than likely, there is nothing wrong.

They go for a solution, instead of reaching for a tool that will tell them there is or isn't a problem....It's a piece of mind tool if anything.


I believe like learning anything new , you learn the "right way" first, then you "cut corners" after you have nailed the fundamentals.

The sheer number of "is my beer ruined," or "I did this, because of this," or "my yeast is dead," or "stuck fermentation" threads, where we have to tell the brewer to use the hydrometer proves that the hydrometer isn't thought of as a necessary tool, or it is viewed as "scary" or taking a reading can harm their beer, by the new brewer. (And this is isn't just extract brewers, I had to "remind" a AG n00b to use one.)

I believe that a long primary does negate the need for a lot of Hydro readings, except for the OG and the FG...So that's all I take during the month my beer is in primary. BUT, I also know the fundamentals of brewing too; I know that fermentation can take up to 72 hours to begin, I know that bubbling in airlock, or lack of isn't an indicator of anything, and I know that it is hard to ruin beer....More importantly I know how to RDWHAHB.

I personally think, that if the new brewer has started a "panic" thread, we should continue to suggest something that is from the fundamentals of brewing- like using a hydrometer first, and reassure them that all is well, before we get into our preferred method of doing things....I think in terms of hydrometers, we all can agree that if the brewer is new, and thinks that something is wrong, that the best tool for ascertaining it is the hydrometer, whether or not we use it regularly ourselfs.

We are not the ones started "panic" threads, because our experince has taught us how to read a beer, but the n00b doesn't have the experience yet to do it. The easiest way to read a beer is with a hydrometer.

There is a big difference between advice and opinion...Most panic threads are looking for advice and reassurance, about a fundamental principle of brewing...not our opinion. We should, I hope be able to tell the difference.

For example, brewer "a" asks a specific question about sanitizing bottles.

Answer 1
"I soak my bottles in a bucket of (prefered sanitizer)"

Answer 2
"I use a vinator with (prefered sanitzer) in it"

Answer 3
"I keg."

Now can you spot the advice and the opinion in these 3 statements? :D

I left off the oven baking and dishwashing ones not to be more confusing...;)

answer. 1 & 2 are advice, 3 is opinion. 1 & 2 adress the fundamental way of sanitizing, and the 2 most common ways of doing it.
 
If you see advice you disagree with, post (respectfully) that you disagree and give your reasons. Using hydrometers as the example, there are plenty of reasons to use them but it harms you not in the least if you don't bother taking a reading (for extract brewers, it's REALLY hard to screw up the OG). There's a case to be made for both sides. Hell, when I joined up here, Walker-San was the resided hydrometer-ninja, he HATED using them and never bothered until he went AG. I rarely see anyone post advice that's really BAD or dangerous.
 
....and hydrometers are cheap. It's not like making a decision on a major purchase and if you will really use it later.
 
The thing that bothers me is when people think there advice is correct because they read it in JZ's book. Yes he is a very good brewer but he is one in thousands of brewers with information on a subject that he gets from his own personal experience. I like the way billtzk put it "There is usually more than one way to skin a cat" I recently told a noob not to use a hydrometer because fermentation had already started and I didn't see a point to go in to his beer and risk infection I also gave him the a reason for it's use and why I don't use them.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=77351

Advice given by respected and/or accomplished figures in the hobby are much more likely to be accurate. There's no denying that. Hell, when I'm able to taste someone's beer personally and know for a fact that they are doing things right, I trust their opinion that much more. I'm far from a Jamil fanboy but you don't destroy the AHA nationals by sort of getting things right some of the time. FWIW Palmer and Jamil have it right unless proven otherwise.
 
Bad advise is everywhere and I can understand the seasond brewers being annoyed when one novice is trying to give another novice advise but chances are they are just excited about thinking thay can help. Good thing for us less experienced the experts jump in with their opinions. Going with the majority is a good idea.
As far as the hydrometer goes I use one because I rarely brew the same brew so I am interested in the estimated alcohol content when done. To me brewing is like cooking. You can use a recipe, a measuring cup, a thermometer or estimate everything and either may come out good or bad and different each time. Even the oven or pan you use to cook with can change the outcome. One method you know exactly how much salt you put in, with the other you know about how much. But with either method it's the experienced cook that will probably make the better meal.

Bad analogy, A hydrometer won't tell you how much to put in just tells you how much you already put in so it's not going to change the out come at all.
I use a hydrometer for an O.G. but rarely take a final. I just rely on experience, if the yeast has not dropped out it needs more time. I do take a taste before racking to the keg. If it's sweet I know I have a problem.
 
Bad advice normally gets called out here. Differences of opinion though, that is for the brewer to come to a conclusion as to which route to go. I would consider bad advice something like, "no need to make a starter". So in that case it's a relative statement that has to be taken in the context of the thread. Personally I just do what the package says "over 1.06 (or whatever the magic number is) make a starter". I don't fault others for always making a starter, but my experience has been that following the manufacturers view on it has always produced the expected results.

But if someone comes in a thread where the guy has like I dunno say 4 lbs of Crystal malt in a 5 gallon recipe for an APA and says "It'll be great, do what you want" I'd consider that bad advice. And most likely someone would come along and say "you may want to adjust your crystal malt to down around 10% or whatever", and then probably a few other people would back this. This is what Bobby is talking about I believe.
 
....and hydrometers are cheap. It's not like making a decision on a major purchase and if you will really use it later.

they may be cheap - until they break. I'm probably on my 6th in 3 years I started out using a hydrometer and after breaking the 3rd or 4th I gave them up for a couple of years. I only started using them again when I went to partial mash so that I could measure my efficiency, and even that is just for my personal curiosity (not that there's anything wrong with the more scientific approach, that's just not my focus)

So yes, I'm one of the ones who advocates not using the hydrometer, within certain contexts in my personal experience. The 1-2-3 method has never let me down, and I think it's helpful to let a stressed out noob know that they can fall back on guidelines like that and most likely be fine. It should be mentioned that hydrometers can only add information to the process, and that if you're not comfortable with not knowing exactly what's happening with the fermentation, nothing can replace a hydrometer's info. but as long as acknowledgement is given to alternate opinions, I see nothing wrong with giving advice that doesn't match that of the majority.
 
:off:

Personally, wrt Hydrometers I think they are crucial for developing recipes from scratch. I do some off-the-wall stuff and without a Hydrometer to let me know my actual OG I am flying blind. Not that I can't do it, but when I want to adjust a recipe I consider it very important. Plus it's sweet to go from what the recipe predicts to see it spot on in your kettle :D, or sometimes not-so-sweet when the ingredients you use didn't give you what you were expecting. This affects all aspects of the brew, granted it might not be crucial if it's a point or two, etc. Once a recipe is time tested and you are familiar with it, there is no real need. It all depends on how consistent one wants to be. I rarely use my Hydrometer on a tested recipe. I might check my OG if I feel something went wrong in the process.
 
Bad analogy, A hydrometer won't tell you how much to put in just tells you how much you already put in so it's not going to change the out come at all.
I use a hydrometer for an O.G. but rarely take a final. I just rely on experience, if the yeast has not dropped out it needs more time. I do take a taste before racking to the keg. If it's sweet I know I have a problem.


Well of course brewing is not exactly like cooking but I do believe the use of a thermometer in cooking is quite like a hydrometer in brewing. You can use both to know when you are done or you can use other observations instead. And of course I did not mean they (themometer/hydrometer) are interchangable
 
Bad analogy, A hydrometer won't tell you how much to put in just tells you how much you already put in so it's not going to change the out come at all.
I use a hydrometer for an O.G. but rarely take a final. I just rely on experience, if the yeast has not dropped out it needs more time. I do take a taste before racking to the keg. If it's sweet I know I have a problem.

Reading my reply again I also think maybe you misunderstood my point.


One method you know exactly how much salt you put in, with the other you know about how much.


You can probably give a more accurate alcohol content using a hydrometer. In my analogy salt in the recipe is alcohol in the beer. I do believe brewing is much like cooking.
 
I'd say a hydrometer in brewing is more like a timer in cooking (or like a toothpick in cake-baking). A hydrometer lets you know when it's done. Without knowing if it's done, then it'll be like the cake that is still gooey in the center. As for advice, luckily there are enough people posting on this forum that bad advice usually gets corrected or the good advice is suggested more.
 
it harms you not in the least if you don't bother taking a reading

Taking that line out of everything that has been said, I disagree. There are a lot of questions that can be answered by knowing a hydrometer reading.

Why are my bottles exploding?

Why does this beer taste thin?

Is my beer done fermenting?

The last time I made this, it had better mouthfeel, why is that?

And a lot more. A temperature fluctuation, a starter, a more viable yeast, different techniques and more will produce different hydrometer readings. Even in extract, if you add more water to top off a batch than you did last time, you rehydrate your yeast instead of pitching it dry, and you're going to get a different beer. Knowing where you start and where you finish is the best way to understand that. And exploding bottles from a stuck fermentation is certainly a potential for harm.


But you are all right. There are many ways to do things, and I know my methods differ from my next door neighbors. We all pick up habits (good and bad) and there isn't a single answer for anyone. I think that it is fairly responsible for people to answer questions in the beginner's forum like you are a text book. At least on common procedures. There are gray areas, of course, but some things are just best for learning and gaining an appreciation of the craft.
 
Well of course brewing is not exactly like cooking but I do believe the use of a thermometer in cooking is quite like a hydrometer in brewing. You can use both to know when you are done or you can use other observations instead. And of course I did not mean they (themometer/hydrometer) are interchangable

I think brewing is just another form of cooking. And when I'm roasting a chicken, I certainly want to know it has hit 165 or whatever inside for a good reason.

Knowing your final gravity is the same thing. You know it is done. There's no guess. Some yeast will get stuck and fall out and you'll think it is done and then you end up with a beer at 1.025 that is supposed to be 1.010, but you'd never know because your experience told you it looked done.
 
Ah, but if someone asks those specific questions,

Why are my bottles exploding?

Why does this beer taste thin?

Is my beer done fermenting?

The last time I made this, it had better mouthfeel, why is that?

The answer is NOT going to be, "Whatever you do, DON'T USE A HYDROMETER!"

If someone is having problems with exploding bottles, the advice is always going to be "you better start checking your FG," i.e. use the hydrometer. Under the scenarios you laid out, the hydrometer IS the needed tool, trying to answer the questions without one would be like trying to frame a wall without using a hammer or a nail gun.

If you're not having problems, though... I've been checking OG just because I'm trying to get some consistency in my efficiency, but I haven't checked a FG reading in a long time.

Besides, I probably didn't make clear that I was talking specifically with respect to checking the original gravity w/extract brewing. If the number doesn't match what your recipe called for, it's much more likely you ****ed up the reading than that there's actually a problem.
 
right. but if someone comes with all of those questions, and the advice they got three weeks earlier was "don't bother with using the hydrometer!" then we all sort of look silly. You've been brewing a longer time. You know your practices. I'm really talking more about people asking questions about fundamentals.
 
Meh, I don't think it's that big a deal. "You know how we said you didn't NEED to use a hydrometer? Well, kid, now you do!"

Fundamentally, I think this is much ado about nothing. I rarely see truly BAD advice given, and usually if it's something that would be considered controversial, you hear differing the opinions and one usually makes the most sense. Anything other than "good practice"-type advice is rare, and it's impossible to define "best-practices" given all of the different (and perfectly valid) ways there are to make beer.
 

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