so i had a talk with a brewery about fermentation.i was shocked at what they said

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ColonelForbin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
368
Reaction score
1
Location
Hattiesburg, MS
they said that in all of their beers( brown ale, pale ale, wheat, porter, stout) that they started fermentation at a rediculous temp in the 80's just to ensure that they had a quick and consistent start to all of their fermentations and once it started they bumped it down to an appropriate temp. i couldnt believe this, since i have always learned that this is unacceptable in american ales. although im not the biggest fan of their beers they do taste clean with no off flavors or esters that high fermentation temps would give off. i would also think that changing the temp from warm to cold so drastically would give rise to off flavors as well but it appears that it doesnt in their case. would someone help shed some light on what i am missing here and how they can pull this off. i know most breweries do not participate in these types of practices and was wondering if maybe the quality of their beer is slightly suffering from this.
 
Temp isn't important for the first phase of fermentation, as long as you don't kill the yeast.

I don't remember the specifics, but I heard the rationale a big ago on a podcast and it might be in Palmers book. When I get home ill double check.
 
considering that their is nothing wrong in their practices, a quick fermentation is more desirable than one that may take any length of time longer. so why wouldnt more breweries, homebrewers do this?
 
The argument against this practice as articulated, for example, by Palmer, is that the high level of initial fermentation activity will produce a proportionally high level of by-products that the less active, lower temperature fermentation in the later stages will be less likely to completely "clean up". I can't speak to it from experience, but feel more comfortable pitching at fermentation temps if possible.
 
Breweries tend to ferment a lot warmer than homebrewers. The hydrostatic pressure created by 15+ bbls of wort/beer is a LOT more than 5 measley gallons. The pressure in professional fermenters keep ester production down so they are able to ferment much higher than we can get away with. 80F might translate into maybe 72 for homebrewers, then ramping down to 65-68F. Thats just my best guess.
 
Breweries tend to ferment a lot warmer than homebrewers. The hydrostatic pressure created by 15+ bbls of wort/beer is a LOT more than 5 measley gallons. The pressure in professional fermenters keep ester production down so they are able to ferment much higher than we can get away with. 80F might translate into maybe 72 for homebrewers, then ramping down to 65-68F. Thats just my best guess.

what about higher alcohols and solventy flavors.
 
Temp isn't important for the first phase of fermentation, as long as you don't kill the yeast.

I disagree with this. Most of the estery flavors associated with beer are produced during the growth phase of the yeast. Different temperatures during the growth phase result in different types of flavors - it's not as simple as the flavors being produced more quickly because the yeast are more active.

If you check out the customer reviews of White Labs strains, people are always saying stuff like, "Oh man don't pitch this into anything over 72 or you'll get [some crazy flavor]." Belgian and Bavarian wheat yeasts are great examples of this - too high temp during the growth phase and you've got banana beer.
 
What's the name of the brewery?

Its easy to think of commercial brewing as home brewing scaled up, but there are important differences, like fermentor geometry, as previously mentioned.
 
what about higher alcohols and solventy flavors.

As far as I've heard talking to brewers when I lived in Cleveland (Great Lakes, Hoppin' Frog, and Buckeye Brewing Co) and from the multiple podcasts from Jamil's Can You Brew It, higher temps (which can be interpreted as up to 80 give or take) do not cause problems with esters, or other off flavors like higher alcohols.
 
Ok....so if I understand right, you could ferment much warmer if you have it under pressure, like if you fermented in a corney with a pressure release set at carb pressures to naturally carb as you ferment. THAT is interesting.... two birds, one stone. Someone smarter please comment on my logic here.
 
@curlyfat: Sadly, no, you can't double up like that. You can NOT ferment under pressure as you will do some EXTREME damage to your fermenter with the amount of beer and the amount of CO2 being released during fermentation. That is why we have blow off tubes on fermenters. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-vat-douses-bc-street-in-suds/article1649621/)

The brewery I worked in used to pitch at 74º and put the cooling on to bring it down to 68º. This gave the yeast a bit of a kick start and then brought it down to comfortable fermentation temps. It's what I do at home as well and works like a charm.

Different yeasts may behave in their own manner but the brewery I worked in (and many) used only one yeast strain so they had done their homework on what worked for that strain.
 
I don't know a whole lot about this subject, but I did read a patent from one of the big brewhouses wherein they disclose a process for brewing lagers at high temperatures by maintaining enough pressure to hold an amount of CO2 in solution equal to that which would be in solution at atmospheric pressure and lower temperature. In other words, it would appear that there is a strong relationship between pressure and "clean" flavors by way of equilibrium CO2 concentration.
 
I disagree with this. Most of the estery flavors associated with beer are produced during the growth phase of the yeast. Different temperatures during the growth phase result in different types of flavors - it's not as simple as the flavors being produced more quickly because the yeast are more active.

If you check out the customer reviews of White Labs strains, people are always saying stuff like, "Oh man don't pitch this into anything over 72 or you'll get [some crazy flavor]." Belgian and Bavarian wheat yeasts are great examples of this - too high temp during the growth phase and you've got banana beer.

I'll try to dig up the podcast I heard it from, but i think it was John Palmer who said it. I'd trust him over some reviews on a website that lack complete information (such has actual ferment temp, not just pitch temp).
 
Ok....so if I understand right, you could ferment much warmer if you have it under pressure, like if you fermented in a corney with a pressure release set at carb pressures to naturally carb as you ferment. THAT is interesting.... two birds, one stone. Someone smarter please comment on my logic here.

I've never heard of this being done successfully. I'm not an engineer, but I think the pressure at the bottom of most commercial fermentation vessels is much higher than what you could get by pressurizing a corny keg.

If you are interested, there is a guy here who ferments in closed sanke kegs with a spunding valve to relieve pressure. I don't think its really to ferment at higher temps and reduce off flavors though. its just a technique to keep the beer from ever coming in contact with oxygen since he directly transfers to a purged keg from the fermentation vessel.
 
I've heard that a lot of homebrewers pitch at ~80*F and slowly bring down the temp to their preferred range in the first 24-48hrs...
 
@curlyfat: Sadly, no, you can't double up like that. You can NOT ferment under pressure as you will do some EXTREME damage to your fermenter with the amount of beer and the amount of CO2 being released during fermentation. That is why we have blow off tubes on fermenters. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-vat-douses-bc-street-in-suds/article1649621/)

The brewery I worked in used to pitch at 74º and put the cooling on to bring it down to 68º. This gave the yeast a bit of a kick start and then brought it down to comfortable fermentation temps. It's what I do at home as well and works like a charm.

Different yeasts may behave in their own manner but the brewery I worked in (and many) used only one yeast strain so they had done their homework on what worked for that strain.

I am sure Curly mentioned a pressure relief valve to control the pressure????
 
couldn't you just build an air lock (trap) with the desired level of pressure, ie 1' = .43 psi, it could get tall though. A mechanical valve would prolly work as well.
 
Temp isn't important for the first phase of fermentation, as long as you don't kill the yeast.

I don't remember the specifics, but I heard the rationale a big ago on a podcast and it might be in Palmers book. When I get home ill double check.
I suspect you may have your information mixed up or incorrect. Palmer says: "Starting out warmer than your intended fermentation temperature will cause more off-flavors due to the fermentation by-products and in extreme cases may cause the yest to stall out." (How to Brew, Vol3, pp 96 'Fermenting your first batch')
I'll try to dig up the podcast I heard it from, but i think it was John Palmer who said it. I'd trust him over some reviews on a website that lack complete information (such has actual ferment temp, not just pitch temp).
I'm happy to trust him also, not someone who seems to be a little mistaken on the information he's providing.
John Palmer wrote the first couple of chapters in Brewing Classic Styles, where they specifically say to start (lager) fermentation cooler and gradually let it warm up. The reason: "is to reduce the production of esters and other less desirable compounds during the most active phases of fermentation." (Brewing Classic Styles, pp 43)

In various recipes in the book, and the accompanying podcasts, Jamil talks about pitching low and letting it warm up. For example for a Weizen the "30 degree rule" (pitch at 13C and ferment at 17C = 30C) is used to produce a clean ferment.

As for the reason why the brewery the OP was talking about starts warm, I think that pcollins was correct in saying that most likely they only use one yeast, they know it and it's characteristics intimately and they know how they can get the 'best' results from their yeast. Sometimes the 'best' ferment may be a combination between speed, flavour and other factors.
 
I am sure Curly mentioned a pressure relief valve to control the pressure????

Yes, I was thinking a mechanical valve that can be set at a specific pressure, and would wrelease anything above that. I've been thinking about trying it for carbing/fermenting at the same time, allowing a temp increase would be a bonus.

I can't for the life of me remember what that stinking valve is called, though....
 
There's a thread somewhere on the forum where someone talks about fermenting at 15 PSI. Note that if you did this with water, you'd need a ~33ft column of water in your airlock :)

^^^^ beaten by seconds :)
 
They don't say how long they keep it at 80, nor what form of yeast they are using. Most yeast require temps between 80 and 110 (depending on yeast) to rehydrate quickly and successfully. It would only make sense for a pro brewery, with the means, to do so.

Pitch the yeast at 80, then slowly bring it down into the 60's over the course of 12 or 18 hours or so. During that phase, the yeast isn't necessarily fermenting yet, but reproducing and taking in nutrients. By the time most of the yeast have stopped reproducing and go into full fermentation, a day or two could have easily gone by, plenty of time for the wort to have been cooled down into the 60's.
 
This is anctedotal (like most everything here), but I typically pitch dry ale yeasts (S-05, Notty, S-04) at around 80F and then drop the carboy into water to cool it down to 62F where I try to maintain for a couple of weeks. I get VERY clean tasting beer, always.

Now, this all makes perfect sense for dry ale yeast. Commercial instructions for Safale say to hydrate at, low and behold, 80F for 20-30 minutes before pitching.

Liquid yeast? Haven't tried starting high and don't want to risk a batch. But I wonder if it matters as long as you get it cooled down in a couple of hours.....

Rich
 
I
If you check out the customer reviews of White Labs strains, people are always saying stuff like, "Oh man don't pitch this into anything over 72 or you'll get [some crazy flavor]." Belgian and Bavarian wheat yeasts are great examples of this - too high temp during the growth phase and you've got banana beer.

I would disagree, i've used both white labs,wyeas and dry yeast some up to 92f when I couldn't cool my wort down enough. Especially with Wheat strains I have pitched in the 90s then put it in my designated fermentation area and 10 hours later it was at a good mid 70s no off tastes. I think its to each their own, some people might have issues with warm fermentation starts and some might not. Think palmer talk about house taste in joy of brewing, each home brewer has their own subtle "house taste" in their brews this might also effect people's off taste. Guess i just live in a very good home. Just my two cents.
 
Written right on the White Labs Lager yeast vials it says to pitch at 70 degrees and wait for signs of fermentation before lowering the temp. Thats the way I've always done it.
 
I've had many instances of having to pitch warm 78-82F with ale yeast. Then set the fermentation chamber to 65F and walked away. Usually because chilling my wort became a frustrating problem.

Only time I had any off flavors was with a Lager yeast, which was pitched in the mid 60's and then lowered.

So I am on the side of it's not a big deal as long as you bring the temps down quickly after pitching.
 
Back
Top