Any Problem If I use NO sulphite, NO yeast and NO chemicals with fresh juice?

I started my cider last night with 6 gallons of fresh squeezed apple juice. I added no sulphites, no yeast and plan to use no chemicals.

Will it do alright? Do you see any problems?

The SG was 1.060, the temp was 72 and the pH was 3.2.

I have it in a sanitized plastic brewers bucket with a lid and water lock installed. It will be kept at room temperature.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. It was a lot of work to squeeze all that juice and I'd like to avoid any problems.

Are you looking for wild yeast to ferment it?

JonM said:

Are you looking for wild yeast to ferment it?

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yes

If you are using wild yeast, you want to keep it a lot colder - like 55-60. At room temp, most wild yeasts will take a while to get going, and then not stop until they have stripped out most of the flavor.

With fresh apples, I just imagine them growing outside, exposed to bugs/dirt/yeast/bacteria and pretty much any nasties that you can find outside. Even if you wash them you can't get them all out. So if you just let it sit there, how do you know that it will be a proper wild yeast that takes hold and not some mold or bacteria or a combination of any of them?

I mean if you let fruits sit on a counter top they eventually start rotting with mold and nasties right?

that's how all cider was made in the past, although even as far back as the 17th century english cidermakers used tricks to sulfite the cider, such as burning sulfur wicks in the vat before adding the juice, and it's how a lot of cider is still made today, but personally unless i wanted a malolactic fermentation i would start with a bit of sulfite, it protects you in the long run (bacteria, oxidation) and it won't be present or noticeable in the final cider. i know it's a 'chemical', but juice is full of chemicals. what you end up with in the juice from k-metabisulfite is potassium ions, and sulfur dioxide (depending on pH) most of the so2 that doesn't react will off-gas. those go well with the chemicals already present such as rhamnogalacturonan and deoxyribonucleicacid!! but the idea that cider can only be made in a sterile environment (a myth perpetuated by brewers!) is bollocks. fruit on the countertop gets moldy, but pressed juice tends to ferment pretty well on its own. i have fermented many batches wild, some with sulfite and some with nothing added, and they have all fermented healthily, and i always get tasty cider in the end. i agree with cvillekevin, go with a lower temp if possible. my wild ferments at warmer temps have always come out very dry, very sharp white winey. personally i like that (but some people's eyeballs pop out a bit when they taste it) but the few lower temp ones i have done have finished a bit more appley.

dinnerstick said:

that's how all cider was made in the past, although even as far back as the 17th century english cidermakers used tricks to sulfite the cider, such as burning sulfur wicks in the vat before adding the juice, and it's how a lot of cider is still made today, but personally unless i wanted a malolactic fermentation i would start with a bit of sulfite, it protects you in the long run (bacteria, oxidation) and it won't be present or noticeable in the final cider. i know it's a 'chemical', but juice is full of chemicals. what you end up with in the juice from k-metabisulfite is potassium ions, and sulfur dioxide (depending on pH) most of the so2 that doesn't react will off-gas. those go well with the chemicals already present such as rhamnogalacturonan and deoxyribonucleicacid!! but the idea that cider can only be made in a sterile environment (a myth perpetuated by brewers!) is bollocks. fruit on the countertop gets moldy, but pressed juice tends to ferment pretty well on its own. i have fermented many batches wild, some with sulfite and some with nothing added, and they have all fermented healthily, and i always get tasty cider in the end. i agree with cvillekevin, go with a lower temp if possible. my wild ferments at warmer temps have always come out very dry, very sharp white winey. personally i like that (but some people's eyeballs pop out a bit when they taste it) but the few lower temp ones i have done have finished a bit more appley.

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We picked the apples from the tree, not the ground. We washed them in clear water first. My press and the must container were all cleaned and sanitized first. The only stuff in the juice is what came out during the milling and the pressing, which I'm sure included a few insects. We did trim any bad spots, but not all bug bites to the skin.

These apples were never sprayed with any chemicals.

You made a great point. I considered that years ago the early Americans out on the farm probably didn't have much in the way of cultured yeasts, potassium metabisulphite or other treatments. They probably started out with as clean an environment as they could, maybe sanitized their barrels but the cider had to get going on its own.

Then again, every time I make this point to my wife she responds with, "Yeah, and they all died in their forties". I hate it when she does that.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but won't an airlock work counter-productive in this instance, as the point of that is to keep out wild yeasts while allowing off-gassing?

The wild yeasts that you want are the ones that were on your apples - not whatever is in your kitchen or basement (unless you've been making cider for a looong time)

Oh, gotcha! Thanks for the quick reply. Still new to brewing and trying to immerse myself.
Can't wait to hear how this "au natural" cider comes out!

samschilling said:

Oh, gotcha! Thanks for the quick reply. Still new to brewing and trying to immerse myself.
Can't wait to hear how this "au natural" cider comes out!

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Yeah, me too. It was a lot of work milling and pressing 6 gallons of juice by hand. Hate to lose it, but then again, I really like JK Scrumpy's cider and that's what I'm shooting for.

Something related I have seen is that if you get a batch that you particularly like, to take a tree twig and cut some deep grooves in it, and immerse that in your brew. Supposedly then the yeasts will penetrate into the grooves, then you can take the stick out and hang it to dry, and then put it into your next batch to help get those yeasts going again.

I really like JK Scrumpy's cider and that's what I'm shooting for

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JK Scrumpy's ferments their cider very cold and slow. They use nitrogen reduction to limit the extent of fermentation, similar to traditional European cider makers like Etienne Dupont. There were some threads on JK Scrumpy clones a while back, which you can probably find with the search function

Most people who use wild yeast also add so2 at the start to get rid of potential nasty yeast/bacteria, however you should be ok without it, just a slightly higher risk of spoilage. Once the wild yeast get going it should finish fairly fast at that temperature, probably about 3-4 weeks for the whole thing. Then you will probably get a wild MLF if you keep it above 60F, that is also a slight risk of spoilage. You need to keep air totally excluded for ageing, a brewers bucket isn't good enough for that so either get a glass carboy or bottle as soon as primary is finished (around 0.096 sg), and age it in bottles. You have a good sg so you should be able to get good cider, you should check pH every year so you can compare your apples to previous seasons.
Wild yeast mainly get in during the milling and pressing, there aren't many on the apple skins, and you don't need an open fermenter.

gregbathurst said:

You need to keep air totally excluded for ageing, a brewers bucket isn't good enough for that so either get a glass carboy or bottle as soon as primary is finished (around 0.096 sg), and age it in bottles. You have a good sg so you should be able to get good cider, you should check pH every year so you can compare your apples to previous seasons.
Wild yeast mainly get in during the milling and pressing, there aren't many on the apple skins, and you don't need an open fermenter.

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I sanitized a sealed bucket with an air lock. Two days later the water is burping so I guess it is working in there.

You said I needed something other than a bucket. Here is what I have it in. Good enough for a primary?

No, that is only good fr the first couple of weeks, after that you will get oxidation or vinegar taint. Even at the tail end of primary you will start to get some oxygen in there. You sound like you are going to a bit of trouble so don't spoil it at the end, oxidation is the main enemy of quality cider so you need to eliminate airspace and have a really tight seal. You can get plastic fermenters with an o-ring that have a smaller neck, which means less headspace. You have to learn to manage your cidermaking so that containers are at or very near full, a range of different vessels from 1 to 12 gallons helps.

gregbathurst said:

No, that is only good fr the first couple of weeks, after that you will get oxidation or vinegar taint. Even at the tail end of primary you will start to get some oxygen in there. You sound like you are going to a bit of trouble so don't spoil it at the end, oxidation is the main enemy of quality cider so you need to eliminate airspace and have a really tight seal. You can get plastic fermenters with an o-ring that have a smaller neck, which means less headspace. You have to learn to manage your cidermaking so that containers are at or very near full, a range of different vessels from 1 to 12 gallons helps.

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These buckets have O-rings and fit really tight. In addition, the juice is almost at the top, maybe an inch down. I thought maybe the CO2 would push the air out through the lock and I'd get a "must" without a risk of oxidation. Am I wrong?

UncaMarc said:

These buckets have O-rings and fit really tight. In addition, the juice is almost at the top, maybe an inch down. I thought maybe the CO2 would push the air out through the lock and I'd get a "must" without a risk of oxidation. Am I wrong?

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For primary, no, that's fine. When fermentation slows down, and c02 is no longer being produced you want a carboy with a very narrow headspace and to top up to the bung so there is no way for oxygen or air to touch the cider.

Yooper said:

For primary, no, that's fine. When fermentation slows down, and c02 is no longer being produced you want a carboy with a very narrow headspace and to top up to the bung so there is no way for oxygen or air to touch the cider.

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Yeah, have those and plan to rack to the carboy when the bubbles stop. Thanks. Any other suggestions?

Hi, not meaning to hijack this thread but after searching for some hours here this naturally fermented cider thread is the most applicable one to my situation I have found, and rather current.

I want to try my first cider batch in two weeks using fresh pressed apples that will be leftover during the peeling and coring process we do for our annual apple butter weekend on the farm. (we've been making 100+ gallons of apple butter on the farm for 40+ years every third weekend in October.) I just recently got into homebrewing and thought why not make some cider this year to drink at next years event!

I want to make a naturally fermented cider and will risk the adventure rather than using Campden tabs and purchased yeast. I plan on aging this cider in a very stable cellar environment that will be around 45-55 degrees, and age it at least 7 months before bottling. I have a few questions I would appreciate guidance on:

Should I add S02 initially? Will this get rid of nasties but not harm the wild yeasts?

Should I add any Yeast energizer or nutrient to get the wild ones going?

If I use a 5 gallon glass carboy for my primary can I just leave it in there with an airlock on it for the 7 months, or should I monitor fermentation and rack it to a secondary vessel to age? If I should move it to a secondary, maybe I will use a brewers bucket (just like UncaMarc) for the primary and then rack to the glass carboy with a bung as the secondary aging container? I assume that by racking it to a secondary a primary purpose is to leave the sediment on the bottom of the primary behind and to make it completely airtight?

If the cider is good enough to share I plan on bottling it in glass growlers with ceramic tops in about May, and letting it age out in those containers until October, and then sharing it with the 60 or so folks who come and help us make Apple Butter next year!

Appreciate any advice you can share about pressing my own juice and making a good potent apple flavored cider!

Thanks

You don't need to add anything to the fresh cider except whatever you plan on feeding the wild yeast like sugar, honey, molasses etc. you can add citrus fruit, nutmeg, cinnamon whatever.
Be sure your 5 gal bucket is sanitized and that can be your primary. Rack it into your sterile glass carboy after the airlock slows down its activity. Be sure to fill the glass carboy up with more apple juice, up into the neck and reapply the airlock. You can keep it in the carboy til you are ready to bottle. Good luck!

porcupine73 said:

Something related I have seen is that if you get a batch that you particularly like, to take a tree twig and cut some deep grooves in it, and immerse that in your brew. Supposedly then the yeasts will penetrate into the grooves, then you can take the stick out and hang it to dry, and then put it into your next batch to help get those yeasts going again.

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Why not just harvest it, wash it, and freeze it?

Hello home brewers,
I'm not sure if this is the right place to be asking but i have a few questions about wild yeast in cider.

I have some experience with making cider years ago, but it was grandpas old wait and see method. I was going to start a batch, and thought I would do some more research on the science behind brewing, and am finding a ton of good info in this forum.

So here comes my newb question, I know you can help.

Saturday afternoon I visited a local orchard to pick up some fresh unpasteurized preservative free cider. The original plan was to treat it with K-metabisulphite before mixing everything and starting fermentation by adding yeast. The cider was left in the trunk overnight(was late when I got home, and was near freezing overnight) I was planning on sanitizing everything and starting this batch Sunday, but didn't have the time.

When I brought in the cider on Sunday morning I noticed one of the gallon jugs had a bit of foam in it, but thought it may have just got shook up a bit (was very little, but enough to notice). Now this (Monday)morning it is clear to see that this jug is actively fermenting.

I have heard many times that wild yeast make the best cider but can be hard to start, not a problem here.. My question is about the chances of a bacterial infection if I just go ahead with this untreated cider. Obviously treating the fermenting gallon will stop fermentation, but should I treat the other 3 gallons before mixing? Should I treat all 4, and just restart it with yeast? Also I just cracked the lid briefly on this fermenting gallon in hopes it would survive until I return from work, was this a bad idea? possibly allowing more contaminants into the mix?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Ian