Keg Fail x 2

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jamursch

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Thought I'd post about my keg failure and maybe someone might have an answer to my mystery. Here goes....

Brewed a 10 gallon batch of Christmas Ale
Put 5 gallons in a keg to carb up and after a week tasted it to find it was cloudy and very solvent-like in flavor. When I pulled the keg out of the fridge and unhooked the gas it was hissing like crazy out of the lid. Apparently my refurb keg lid is very temperamental and it wasn't sealed correctly. Fail #1

Being I had only that same keg open and thinking that I just needed to make sure my lid seals, I put the 2nd 5 gallons in the same keg after cleaning and sanitizing it again. I even used star san bubbles around the lid to make sure it sealed correctly (after 4 tries).

A week later it was exactly the same? When the beer went into the keg both times it was crystal clear and tasted great, so is my gas post failing too?

I'm confused how I get the same result for both batches after making sure the keg is sealed perfectly. Anyone have any words of wisdom for me?
 
If it only hissed after unhooking the gas then it sounds like the poppit in the gas post has a leak. If the lid isn't easily sealing then I recommend one of the soft lid o-rings. I haven't needed them but a search will find discussions of them on the forum.

I perform an initial seal with 30psi and have had no problems with my six pinlocks.

In my somewhat limited experience, the first couple pints are never clear, as the remaining yeast settles to the bottom after kegging, especially if you haven't cold crashed prior to kegging. As for the solvent taste, how are you cleaning and sanatizing your kegs? What is your CO2 source?
 
If it only hissed after unhooking the gas then it sounds like the poppit in the gas post has a leak. If the lid isn't easily sealing then I recommend one of the soft lid o-rings. I haven't needed them but a search will find discussions of them on the forum.

I perform an initial seal with 30psi and have had no problems with my six pinlocks.

In my somewhat limited experience, the first couple pints are never clear, as the remaining yeast settles to the bottom after kegging, especially if you haven't cold crashed prior to kegging. As for the solvent taste, how are you cleaning and sanatizing your kegs? What is your CO2 source?

The beer in question was moved from Primary to a secondary and then to the keg with minimal sediment in the end. Regardless, the I've tested more than just a pint or 2 before concluding it's cloudy so unfortunately it's not just sediment.

Kegs are soaked overnight in Oxyclean and then rinsed and filled with Star San and making sure it's pumped out of the Out and In posts to make sure it runs through.

CO2 source is the same tank I've been using for 8 months now and not having issues with other beers. It isn't food grade CO2 though. I just tested the keg that has been sitting since Thursday and when I pulled the pressure valve it hissed, so seems like it's sealed fine?

Could it be my Gas Connection or Oring around the gas post? Solvent and cloudy is an O2 issue right, not a infection situation right?
The only thing I can think of is that I haven't scrubbed the inside of the diptube in a few uses.
 
What's the temperature?
I've seen beer freeze in the keg before, it gets thicker, darker, cloudier, and the flavor gets stronger.
 
Clear beer from the fermenter to cloudy beer in a keg could be "chill haze". Let it cold condition for a few weeks and it will clear nicely I would think.
 
Clear beer from the fermenter to cloudy beer in a keg could be "chill haze". Let it cold condition for a few weeks and it will clear nicely I would think.

The cloudiness of the beer is far less offensive than that of the solvent-like flavor. I have it sitting out at room temp so I'll have to give it another taste but I've not run into chill haze issues and use Irish Moss to clear my beer and only Wheat beers tend to be cloudy these days.

Thanks for the input and I'll keep working on this issue.
 
What's the temperature?
I've seen beer freeze in the keg before, it gets thicker, darker, cloudier, and the flavor gets stronger.

Kegerator temp is only in the mid 40's, around 46 last time I checked.
Unfortunately, Solvent flavor suggests more than just a frozen Beer-a-rita though.
 
Kegs are soaked overnight in Oxyclean and then rinsed and filled with Star San and making sure it's pumped out of the Out and In posts to make sure it runs through.

How well are you rinsing the oxiclean out? It's very difficult to rinse fully in my experience, and requires many many rinses with HOT water to remove it all. Any residual oxiclean will react to form chlorophenols, which have an extremely low taste threshold. Chlorophenols often have a harsh medicinal or burnt plastic taste, which could easily be perceived as solventy.

Solvent and cloudy is an O2 issue right, not a infection situation right?
The only thing I can think of is that I haven't scrubbed the inside of the diptube in a few uses.

No, O2 issues usually create sherry or wet cardboard flavors. Fusel alcohols can combine with oxidation to make solvent off flavors, but
you would have tasted the fusels before you kegged it. And infections can produce all sorts of off flavors, including solventy ones, and often also make the beer cloudy.
 
How well are you rinsing the oxiclean out? It's very difficult to rinse fully in my experience, and requires many many rinses with HOT water to remove it all. Any residual oxiclean will react to form chlorophenols, which have an extremely low taste threshold. Chlorophenols often have a harsh medicinal or burnt plastic taste, which could easily be perceived as solventy.

Not sure where this info is coming from - could you share a source on any of it?

I use OxiClean Free (granted, there could be a significant difference between the Free product and the vanilla, and OP didn't specify Free, so probably safe to assume that he's not using Oxi Free. If he switches over to Oxi Free, that does rinse pretty darned easily - I find that a good rinse of hot water, sometimes two, and there's no residue left behind.

That said - I've see no indications that OxiClean contains any form of bleach, so I really question the suggestion that OxiClean would contribute to chlorophenols. Soapy flavors, sure. But I just can't see chlorophenols from Oxi, unless you're specifically buying a variety of OxiClean with bleach added.
 
Not sure where this info is coming from - could you share a source on any of it?

I use OxiClean Free (granted, there could be a significant difference between the Free product and the vanilla, and OP didn't specify Free, so probably safe to assume that he's not using Oxi Free. If he switches over to Oxi Free, that does rinse pretty darned easily - I find that a good rinse of hot water, sometimes two, and there's no residue left behind.

That said - I've see no indications that OxiClean contains any form of bleach, so I really question the suggestion that OxiClean would contribute to chlorophenols. Soapy flavors, sure. But I just can't see chlorophenols from Oxi, unless you're specifically buying a variety of OxiClean with bleach added.

I've thoroughly rinsed 3-4 times with cold water and still felt a residue after soaking equipment in oxiclean. I'm sure some of it has to do with the concentration used though, and there seems to be a wide variety of opinions on how concentrated to make an oxiclean solution for cleaning kegs and other brewing equipment.

You're absolutely right about the chlorophenols. I don't know why I was thinking that oxiclean had some form of chlorine in it. It uses hydrogen peroxide as the bleaching agent. The off flavor from not rinsing well enough wouldn't be chlorophenols, but it would be a much more harsh flavor than "soapy".
 
I've thoroughly rinsed 3-4 times with cold water and still felt a residue after soaking equipment in oxiclean. I'm sure some of it has to do with the concentration used though, and there seems to be a wide variety of opinions on how concentrated to make an oxiclean solution for cleaning kegs and other brewing equipment.

You're absolutely right about the chlorophenols. I don't know why I was thinking that oxiclean had some form of chlorine in it. It uses hydrogen peroxide as the bleaching agent. The off flavor from not rinsing well enough wouldn't be chlorophenols, but it would be a much more harsh flavor than "soapy".

I guess poor rinsing could be the problem. I rinse it with hot water 2 times and then fill with Star San and then hook it up to the kegerator to pump it out while also refreshing my beer line. (I clean beer line regularly too)
Since Oxyclean Free is O2 based it might be a combination of the Oxyclean reacting to a BIG beer.
 
Is it OxyClean Free, or just normal OxyClean that you're using? If OxyClean Free, the method you describe is almost exactly what I use, and I haven't had any problems with off flavors. I dump a scoop of oxy into the keg, fill it up with hot water and let it soak overnight (occasionally leaving it for a couple days before I can get to it), then I give it a thorough rinse with hot water from the sprayer on my utility sink. I tend to doubt that Oxy is your problem.

The cloudiness sounds like chill haze. The solvent-like tastes you're reporting sound more like fusel alcohols to be honest. I'd be more inclined to look at the ferment process for that specific beer, rather than the kegging process. How warm did that beer ferment?
 
Is it OxyClean Free, or just normal OxyClean that you're using? If OxyClean Free, the method you describe is almost exactly what I use, and I haven't had any problems with off flavors. I dump a scoop of oxy into the keg, fill it up with hot water and let it soak overnight (occasionally leaving it for a couple days before I can get to it), then I give it a thorough rinse with hot water from the sprayer on my utility sink. I tend to doubt that Oxy is your problem.

The cloudiness sounds like chill haze. The solvent-like tastes you're reporting sound more like fusel alcohols to be honest. I'd be more inclined to look at the ferment process for that specific beer, rather than the kegging process. How warm did that beer ferment?

The beer fermented in the mid 60's sitting in a swamp cooler so it probably didn't vary much while fermenting. While it could be chill haze, I've never had CH before and this was my 14th batch this calendar year. Could be possible but seems odd.
The flavors tasted great when I moved it from my secondary into the keg, so that's why I keep focusing on the kegging process.

I'm pretty meticulous with my equipment and sanitation but maybe it's my siphon? It's starting to show wear from the racking cane sliding up and down inside, but I still doubt that. I clean and sanitize almost immediately after using it each time.
 
One other thought: what pressure are you carbing and serving at? Have you changed your pressure from previous kegs?
 
Sounds like you're doing everything right. Could the off flavor be from the CO2? I've overcarbed before and the beer had a bite to it. Not sure if that woulld be considered solventy. It wasn't till reading some threads on here about over carbing and carbonic acid that I realized the problem. Now I force carb with the set at serving pressure and forget method. The bite went away.

Just a thought.
 
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