Attempting 40%+ ABV beer... "Barley Brandy"

Yeah, you're right. I agree. But I'd have treated a photo of that dual frankenchiller, 3 pump set-up actually operating in pasteurization mode like a brewing centerfold shot. I think my gadgetitus was flaring up. Sorry.

*ahem*

motobrewer said:

*ahem*

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What's the *ahem* for? Been following this thread too long for an *ahem* from moto.

Any bubbleage?

im guessing the beano didnt work or he would have posted about it?

Other way around. If the Beano works, he has to admit Moto was right, so we'll never hear about this beer again.

Nah... I just have had too much goin on to look at it lately. I'll take a peek soon. The other thing I am considerig is adding a gallon or two of water to dilute it a fair amount and then see if the yeast does anything more. If I am going to freeze concentrate it, I am not sure more freezing is a horrible alternative.

this would have been a perfect entry in the club meeting in jan for "specialty beer"

any update on this?

It does not sound like cape has much intrest in this anymore. I call this experiment BUSTED.

I still have it... It is "aging". As I've posted previously, I've tried everything to get it to budge and nothing. I have one more trick up my sleeve but it has been a combination of frustration, laziness and a fck-ton of other beers that has kept me from doung anything with it.

At some point I'll play with it. It's about 17.5% abv right now and is sitting in a cool spot so its not going anywhere.

so, just to be clear, did the amalyze do anything?

Didnt touch it. Honestly.

As painful as it would be, I would admit it, but no, didnt budge.

So now you freeze it and melt off a portion of the alcohol to provide a less hostile environment for the next pitch?

Other way... Add three gallons of water to bring the ABV down and dilute whatever "yeast toxins" are in the beer. I am going to "eisbock it" anyway.

you could also send a sample to AJ and figure out what the heck is in it.

who's AJ?

I have a club meeting at my place tomorrow night and one of our former members is giving the presentation. He went and got his PHD in microbiology specializing in yeasts... so... I am hoping to have a few additional insights into high ABV fermenting after tomorrow night.

If he does, I'll make sure to pass them along.

the guy with this lab:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2009/07/testing-alcohol-content-of-ice.html

i think his hbt name is ajdelange

Cape Brewing said:

who's AJ?

I have a club meeting at my place tomorrow night and one of our former members is giving the presentation. He went and got his PHD in microbiology specializing in yeasts... so... I am hoping to have a few additional insights into high ABV fermenting after tomorrow night.

If he does, I'll make sure to pass them along.

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Cape who's doing that, I didn't know that was the presentation.

A guy...

Anyway, fantastic presentation... but he had nuthin' new for what what do with this monster I'm trying to get to budge.

One interesting thing... I asked him if yeast produced anything during fermentation that would ultimately create a toxic environment for the yeast.. OTHER than ethanol.

... and he said no... so according to him, the notion that an evironment can be created by the yeast that would, in turn, be hostile to yeast in ways other than high ABV is false (except of course santation issues... which this beer does not have).

I thought that was interesting and a bit different from what I had heard implied previously. He said the whole "adding boiled bread yeast" wouldn't remove any "toxins" because 1) there aren't any toxins there and 2) once boiled, the cells would be completed destroyed and broken down into much smaller parts. He said that adding "boiled bread yeast" might work in some instances because the broken down cells would likely end up acting as nutrients for the yeast being used for fermentation.

He thought the dilution approach with a few gallons of water may be my best bet at this point and that's what I'm going to try.

We'll see...

I've got a 15 gallon sanke cleaned and ready to go tonight. I was waiting for his presentation first before I do anything so, again, next step is to rack it all to the new fermenter, add a few gallons of water to dilute it and then pitch some more yeast (probably just go with Turbo yeast... screw it).

Well... At least you won't have to worry about aging the beer when it's done

Yeah, I thought the recommendation was a month in primary. This has been in what, seven, eight months?

By traditional wisdom, this beer will be fantastic!

Really want to try this when I get time and brew space issues worked out.

A few questions/notes on freeze distilling and watering down to promote activity. Your plan seems to be solid. But watering down and freezing off the water isn't just removing water. It would be separating water out and increasing ABV. Lets say you remove half the amount of water in the solution that is, for easy math sake, 20% ABV and 5 gallons of total volume. After ice distilling out 2 gallons, you have a 33% ABV but the 2 gallons of ice contain some of the stuff that should be in your beer. flavors, sugars, ect. Now that reason you can't use a still on your beer is because it will leave the beer behind entirely and just end up with alcohol because alcohol boils at a much lower temp then water (most of what I am saying is clearly obvious to you or you wouldnt be this far). But whats to say you can't just, sort of, distill this ice down to extract everything that isnt water. As in, heat it to a temp below a boil and let a gallon steam off, then add it back. Now you have 4 gallons of 25% ABV, roughly. Repeat until ABV is at level you want.

Honestly, I didnt read the entire 59 page thread, but I skimmed it. Perhaps I missed a step in the plan. I really am just spitballing. I've only read about freeze distilling so not really sure if this would work. Any thoughts on my approach?

szucconi said:

Really want to try this when I get time and brew space issues worked out.

A few questions/notes on freeze distilling and watering down to promote activity. Your plan seems to be solid. But watering down and freezing off the water isn't just removing water. It would be separating water out and increasing ABV. Lets say you remove half the amount of water in the solution that is, for easy math sake, 20% ABV and 5 gallons of total volume. After ice distilling out 2 gallons, you have a 33% ABV but the 2 gallons of ice contain some of the stuff that should be in your beer. flavors, sugars, ect. Now that reason you can't use a still on your beer is because it will leave the beer behind entirely and just end up with alcohol because alcohol boils at a much lower temp then water (most of what I am saying is clearly obvious to you or you wouldnt be this far). But whats to say you can't just, sort of, distill this ice down to extract everything that isnt water. As in, heat it to a temp below a boil and let a gallon steam off, then add it back. Now you have 4 gallons of 25% ABV, roughly. Repeat until ABV is at level you want.

Honestly, I didnt read the entire 59 page thread, but I skimmed it. Perhaps I missed a step in the plan. I really am just spitballing. I've only read about freeze distilling so not really sure if this would work. Any thoughts on my approach?

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Couldn't you distill it to get all the alcohol out of it, and then add some of whats left of the original mixture to get it down to 40% ABV and maintain some fo the character of the original liquid?

How do they make rye and rum and whatnot? Surely during the distillation process they'd end up with 100% alcohol too, right?

Distillation is illegal. Freeze concentration is the correct terminology here.

paulster2626 said:

Couldn't you distill it to get all the alcohol out of it, and then add some of whats left of the original mixture to get it down to 40% ABV and maintain some fo the character of the original liquid?

How do they make rye and rum and whatnot? Surely during the distillation process they'd end up with 100% alcohol too, right?

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This is where my knowledge is limited. But surely building a still to create booze is more illegal then heating up non-alcoholic beer water. I don't know how various spirits are made . But in any case, taking 190 proof alcohol and adding some beer-wash would give it little body and still be like a beer flavored whiskey. As in it would maintain the character of the original at all. What I am suggesting is more that the beer flavored water is a valuable asset. And that you can concentrate it to add back the full profile of the flavor without the water. Assuming heating has zero effect, which may not be the case at all.

I'm thinking it depends on what the ice looks/tastes like and what the concentration of "other stuff" is in it. I get what your saying but I'm curious what the ultimate benefit would be.

If the ice is coming out of the freeze concentration process almost white with little or no flavor to it, I'm not going to bother. If it is coming out like mud... then, yeah... might be worth it.

I gotta get the damn thing to finish fermenting out first.

yes... distillation is illegal and not at all what I'm attempting.

and "concentrating" the "beer" post freeze concentration wouldn't be distilling. Distillation is specifically the boiling off and then collection of alcohol.

This would be "boil concentrating" non-alcoholic liquid in order to remove water.

jeepinjeepin said:

Distillation is illegal. Freeze concentration is the correct terminology here.

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Even if you are being pedantic, you bring up a good point. Well, question rather. Freeze concentration isn't really concentration at all, its freeze separation, right? you don't just get a block of ice. You get two beers, one with little to no alcohol and one with the remaining alcohol. Everything in solution gets split unless some how they can also be freeze separated from water.

moto's 1st law of HBT! glad to see my laws in action.

... again... depends on the how much "beer" is in the "no alcohol one"

my impression of freeze concentration, if done correctly, is that what you take out of the beer is overwhelmingly just water.

motobrewer said:

moto's 1st law of HBT! glad to see my laws in action.

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BTW... I am pretty sure I tossed out Hitler and dead hookers about 400 posts ago

that's fine. moto's 1st law states:

"if you mention freeze concentration on HBT, someone will tell you distillation is illegal and tell you to stop talking about it."

I thought Moto's first law was "always make sure the guy wears a condom".

Or is that just Moto's first "suggestion"?

if that were the case, i wouldn't have a 4 year old.

motobrewer said:

if that were the case, i wouldn't have a 4 year old.

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So the guy didnt wear a condom? As least you got a brewing assistant out of the deal.

alright alright... focus people.

I'll rack, dilute and repitch tonight and report back in a couple of days to see if there is any movement.

If not... I will finally break down, admit defeat and chalk it up as a loss (and start planning another run at it).

It is way too oxidized to drink in any way so if I can't get fermentation to kick up somehow, it's a loss.

the guy certainly didn't wear a condom....and there was no deal...

i did get a ducati out of my 2 year old though.

motobrewer said:

that's fine. moto's 1st law states:

"if you mention freeze concentration on HBT, someone will tell you distillation is illegal and tell you to stop talking about it."

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Actually. Freeze concentration was mentioned, confused with distillation, and attempted to shuffle back to freeze concentration. Which is by the way completely legal. Not so in years past?

Cape Brewing said:

alright alright... focus people.

I'll rack, dilute and repitch tonight and report back in a couple of days to see if there is any movement.

If not... I will finally break down, admit defeat and chalk it up as a loss (and start planning another run at it).

It is way too oxidized to drink in any way so if I can't get fermentation to kick up somehow, it's a loss.

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I have no idea what I'm talking about, but nonetheless I have a question. When you described the plan to dilute, you said the purpose was to dilute the "yeast toxins" so the yeast could start up again. But in a later post, you said the expert you heard speak opined that yeast doesn't throw off yeast toxins. Does that eliminate the point to diluting, or does the strategy of diluting rest on a different reason?