Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

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You can malt your own barley, culture your own yeast, grow your own hops, too.

CSI makes excellent product - if you are going to buy what he makes then I think you will be buying the best available.

There is no reason for this provocation, IMO. This is a homebrew forum where we enjoy each other's company. Chill out and have fun with this recipe and beer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Although it's hard to convey tone in typed responses, provocation is not my intention. You can also buy beer at the store, yet here we are. That's a rather asinine point to make on a website dedicated to making your own beer. And although CSI wants you to buy their product, discussing other syrups and alternatives is not trolling. It's simple, if you are unable to see any value in the links I provided, then carry on and ignore the post.
 
Well back to the subject at hand, cloning a great beer. I just brewed this up today. Thank you for all of the helpful tips posted into one area. Question for the OP - do you see any issue with doing the tertiary fermentation in a keg at 40F instead of 50F?
 
Sippin37 said:
Well back to the subject at hand, cloning a great beer. I just brewed this up today. Thank you for all of the helpful tips posted into one area. Question for the OP - do you see any issue with doing the tertiary fermentation in a keg at 40F instead of 50F?
Click to expand...

As long as your gravity is already at (1.012-1.013), brightening at 40F is fine. Are you using a temp controlled brightening tank?
 
We bottled a 10 gallon variation test version of this today, (brewed with all Dingeman's Pale). It was our 39th edition of this ale. This trial was much maltier but even with a breadier pallet the bittering hops came through in a much crisper way. Brewers Gold + Pale may be worth mentioning.
 
meadowstream said:
you can malt your own barley, culture your own yeast, grow your own hops, too.

Csi makes excellent product - if you are going to buy what he makes then i think you will be buying the best available.

There is no reason for this provocation, imo. This is a homebrew forum where we enjoy each other's company. Chill out and have fun with this recipe and beer.


Sent from my iphone using home brew
Click to expand...

+1
 
CSI said:
As long as your gravity is already at (1.012-1.013), brightening at 40F is fine. Are you using a temp controlled brightening tank?
Click to expand...

Speaking of deviating from the recipe, just a quick comment and question. My first batch I had a wort chiller leak and ended up with a low OG (1.076). It turned out to be maybe the best beer I've ever made. I am sure that you have the process very well dialed in by now, but do you have anything to share about variations from the recipe that turned out well?

Yes, I know that the question is slightly off subject (since we are cloning the Westy 12) but relevant in the sense that most of us do not have the same controls as a commercial operation.

Thanks again for a great product.
 
Sippin37 said:
Well back to the subject at hand, cloning a great beer. I just brewed this up today. Thank you for all of the helpful tips posted into one area. Question for the OP - do you see any issue with doing the tertiary fermentation in a keg at 40F instead of 50F?
Click to expand...

That's exactly the temperature I have been lagering my Westy at for the last almost 4 weeks. I have another pilsner in my temperature controlled freezer, so have had to average the two temperatures (30 and 50). I understand that other Belgian beers are lagered at about this temperature.
 
CSI said:
We bottled a 10 gallon variation test version of this today, (brewed with all Dingeman's Pale). It was our 39th edition of this ale. This trial was much maltier but even with a breadier pallet the bittering hops came through in a much crisper way. Brewers Gold + Pale is may be worth mentioning.
Click to expand...

That sounds much closer to the Westvletern taste that my palate picked up. I thought that you already used Brewers Gold and Dingeman's Pale in your previous editions. What other differences dio you think account for the improved taste in this edition?
 
I have a question on the wort boil down.

I did a practice run on this tonight in preparation for a run at this beer in a few days. I boiled the wort down to thick syrup, but it didn't get to a mahogany color. More like dark amber-red, as in C120's hue. It had a flavor much like crystal malt. Tangy, malty caramel.

Is the wort syrup to be stirred steadily, or does one treat it like a sugar syrup and let it stir itself with convection? I tried leaving it alone, but was getting some scary rates of carmelization that made me start stirring again. The boil would go still for 20 seconds or so, and then erupt out of the syrup with a lot of burned sugar smell (didn't manifest in the flavor, thankfully).

I've got some practice at making my own dark syrups. Mine aren't anywhere near as good as CSI's though. However, this wort syrup has a lot of protein in it, and I'm not sure how to handle it.
 
spexicola said:
Is the wort syrup to be stirred steadily, or does one treat it like a sugar syrup and let it stir itself with convection?
Click to expand...

CSI is the ideal person to answer that. However, I seem to recall reading in the previous thread, that the syrup should be continually stirred, especially when the volume becomes small. Otherwise, part of it could burn, and you would end up with a burnt taste rather than a caramelized taste.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
That sounds much closer to the Westvletern taste that my palate picked up. I thought that you already used Brewers Gold and Dingeman's Pale in your previous editions. What other differences dio you think account for the improved taste in this edition?
Click to expand...

Yes, the grist is normally a balancing act between Pale and Pils in holding strictly to the BLAM template.

Last year we noticed a reduction in the bready palate coming from the import so we tried Pils only (with clear wort decoction) and it matched up very well. This more recent brew was another variation test sans decoction using all Pale only. Wanted to emphasize the Pale-malt-only affect on the Brewers Gold. It was really, really nice :)
 
Bottoms_Up said:
CSI is the ideal person to answer that. However, I seem to recall reading in the previous thread, that the syrup should be continually stirred, especially when the volume becomes small. Otherwise, part of it could burn, and you would end up with a burnt taste rather than a caramelized taste.
Click to expand...

Yes, definitely do not want to burn the wort on boil-down.
 
spexicola said:
I have a question on the wort boil down.

Is the wort syrup to be stirred steadily, or does one treat it like a sugar syrup and let it stir itself with convection? I tried leaving it alone, but was getting some scary rates of carmelization that made me start stirring again. The boil would go still for 20 seconds or so, and then erupt out of the syrup with a lot of burned sugar smell (didn't manifest in the flavor, thankfully).

I've got some practice at making my own dark syrups. Mine aren't anywhere near as good as CSI's though. However, this wort syrup has a lot of protein in it, and I'm not sure how to handle it.
Click to expand...

Agitation is a pain but necessary for the wort boil-down. We have eyes on it from first bubbles to caramel. Maltose caramelization accelerates quickly so it has to be stirred constantly. Charring the long chain saccharides can create acrid flavors so the last five minutes are key. Once it's ready, we like to get it off of the heat quickly.
 
CSI said:
As long as your gravity is already at (1.012-1.013), brightening at 40F is fine. Are you using a temp controlled brightening tank?
Click to expand...


Yes I will be putting it in a corny keg in my kegerator which has a temp controller set to 40F. I will let it age in there for awhile and then turn the gas on to carbonate. I will bottle directly from the keg unless you feel the end product is drastically better priming with the D180 syrup?

Thanks
 
Sippin37 said:
Yes I will be putting it in a corny keg in my kegerator which has a temp controller set to 40F. I will let it age in there for awhile and then turn the gas on to carbonate. I will bottle directly from the keg unless you feel the end product is drastically better priming with the D180 syrup?

Thanks
Click to expand...

In following the traditional bottle refermentation we have never force carbonated the Westy so I have no comparison. I have the kegs and equipment but have never used it on the Westy 12.
 
I will make this recipe! Have read about this "12" and have convinced myself to try it. Since I can't travel to Belgium, I must brew it. Life is short, right??


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I brewed a similar attempt at a nice quad/Westy clone recently and just moved to the keezer for teritary ferm today (40*.) Had a question though... reading through this thread you have teritary temps listed on page one as 50* and ending at 50* (40 days). On page two, you say 60* and ending at 36* (50 days.)

I'm probably just going to end up leaving it at 40* for 45-60 and bottling it, but was curious as to the differences in your posts and which ended in a better clone, or if there was any noteable difference?

Thanks!

For the record I did the following:

10lbs Belgian Pils
5lbs Belgian Pale
1lb Special B
2lbs D-180

.75oz Magnum @60 with a 90 minute mash (150*) and boil. OG was 1.088 and FG was 1.008, today's sample was f-ing phenomenal.
 
ruger988 said:
Had a question though... reading through this thread you have teritary temps listed on page one as 50* and ending at 50* (40 days). On page two, you say 60* and ending at 36* (50 days.)
Click to expand...

If you're referring to posts #1 and #21, the latter post is a copy of the original "revised" recipe by saq. Post #1 is a subsequent revision by CSI.

In post #21, as I read it, saq's goal was 5 days at 83 F, 2 days at 65 F, and 50 days at 60 F. Instead, his actual brewing appears to be have been 18 days at 83 F, 3 days going from 80 F to 60 F, and 3 days going from 60 F to 36 F. After that, he doesn't say how long he actually lagered it for. I assume it would also be for about 50 days, or even less, since it was at a lower temperature.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
If you're referring to posts #1 and #21, the latter post is a copy of the original "revised" recipe by saq. Post #1 is a subsequent revision by CSI.

In post #21, as I read it, saq's goal was 5 days at 83 F, 2 days at 65 F, and 50 days at 60 F. Instead, his actual brewing appears to be have been 18 days at 83 F, 3 days going from 80 F to 60 F, and 3 days going from 60 F to 36 F. After that, he doesn't say how long he actually lagered it for. I assume it would also be for about 50 days, or even less, since it was at a lower temperature.
Click to expand...

Ahh, that clears it up. The whole 2 recipesin one thread thing threw me off. Thanks!
 
ruger988 said:
I brewed a similar attempt at a nice quad/Westy clone recently and just moved to the keezer for teritary ferm today (40*.) Had a question though... reading through this thread you have teritary temps listed on page one as 50* and ending at 50* (40 days). On page two, you say 60* and ending at 36* (50 days.)

I'm probably just going to end up leaving it at 40* for 45-60 and bottling it, but was curious as to the differences in your posts and which ended in a better clone, or if there was any noteable difference?

Thanks!

For the record I did the following:

10lbs Belgian Pils
5lbs Belgian Pale
1lb Special B
2lbs D-180

.75oz Magnum @60 with a 90 minute mash (150*) and boil. OG was 1.088 and FG was 1.008, today's sample was f-ing phenomenal.
Click to expand...

As a variation it looks good and sounds good. Your FG was way down there so I'm assuming you had a very high quality pitch, (Westmalle?). How did the magnum hops come through?
 
Kee said:
Speaking of deviating from the recipe, just a quick comment and question. My first batch I had a wort chiller leak and ended up with a low OG (1.076). It turned out to be maybe the best beer I've ever made. I am sure that you have the process very well dialed in by now, but do you have anything to share about variations from the recipe that turned out well?

Yes, I know that the question is slightly off subject (since we are cloning the Westy 12) but relevant in the sense that most of us do not have the same controls as a commercial operation.

Thanks again for a great product.
Click to expand...

If your gravity was at 1.076 and the pitch was for 1.090 then the ale will be drier and have a hoppier aroma and palate over time. I have had a Westy 12 brew 'fail' at 1.082 due to not paying attention to the sparge volume. It was dry and hoppy but still carried that subtle plum profile and candi syrup finish. It was really good.
 
CSI said:
If your gravity was at 1.076 and the pitch was for 1.090 then the ale will be drier and have a hoppier aroma and palate over time. I have had a Westy 12 brew 'fail' at 1.082 due to not paying attention to the sparge volume. It was dry and hoppy but still carried that subtle plum profile and candi syrup finish. It was really good.
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding. My latest batch (just put in the fermenter) the gravity was almost on the money (1.089). And I finally remembered to leave enough headroom in the carboy! I blew off a lot of yeast the last two batches.

My low gravity batch was very well balanced, but it may be because I started using a hop basket and I didn't get full utilization from the hops. I am still playing around with that. The little bit of extra dryness was fine for my taste.
 
CSI said:
As a variation it looks good and sounds good. Your FG was way down there so I'm assuming you had a very high quality pitch, (Westmalle?). How did the magnum hops come through?
Click to expand...

I was shocked how low it was, especially considering some issues I had. I actually checked it with three different hydros to make sure. Did a three liter starter with two packs of 3787. Magnum may not have been the best choice for long term aging but they're showing through just enough to know they're there at the moment, happens to be the way I like it though. I'll be giving Brewer's Gold a shot next time. Went with Magnum (and my recipe) as I came up with and decided on the recipe just before I found the original Westy clone thread.

Funny you quoted me today as I was logging on to send you a message, check you inbox in a few!
 
I also didn't add the D-180 until high krausen. Split my 5.5 gal batch between two fermenters and pitched 1lb to each about 36 hours after pitching my big starter. Think that may have contributed to such a low FG, or was it ust that I had such a big/fresh starter?
 
ruger988 said:
I also didn't add the D-180 until high krausen. Split my 5.5 gal batch between two fermenters and pitched 1lb to each about 36 hours after pitching my big starter. Think that may have contributed to such a low FG, or was it ust that I had such a big/fresh starter?
Click to expand...

Were there any traces of the D-180 left in the fermenter? I remember saq in the other thread used to add D-2 in the secondary but abandoned that practice after finding some left in his conical.
 
This looks like a killer recipe. I want to add it to my recipes I have in brewmate but what style do I put it under. Belgian Dark Strong ale ? I could put it under any thing really because I don't plan on tweaking this recipe one bit, but my ocd won't let me haha.
 
ruger988 said:
I was shocked how low it was, especially considering some issues I had. I actually checked it with three different hydros to make sure. Did a three liter starter with two packs of 3787. Magnum may not have been the best choice for long term aging but they're showing through just enough to know they're there at the moment, happens to be the way I like it though. I'll be giving Brewer's Gold a shot next time. Went with Magnum (and my recipe) as I came up with and decided on the recipe just before I found the original Westy clone thread.

Funny you quoted me today as I was logging on to send you a message, check you inbox in a few!
Click to expand...

In the past on IPA's and our favorite RIS we use US Magnum in whole flower. I love the hop and would like to know how it ages out in your Westy variation.
 
whiskeyjack said:
This looks like a killer recipe. I want to add it to my recipes I have in brewmate but what style do I put it under. Belgian Dark Strong ale ? I could put it under any thing really because I don't plan on tweaking this recipe one bit, but my ocd won't let me haha.
Click to expand...

Yep, Belgian Dark Strong.
 
Kee said:
Were there any traces of the D-180 left in the fermenter? I remember saq in the other thread used to add D-2 in the secondary but abandoned that practice after finding some left in his conical.
Click to expand...

Good point to bring up. If adding adjuncts to secondary or a mid-primary (high krausen), it helps to dilute. Diluting 1 cup H2O to 1 lb syrup requires a boil and chill but the result helps when mixing with chilled wort.
 
Kee said:
Were there any traces of the D-180 left in the fermenter? I remember saq in the other thread used to add D-2 in the secondary but abandoned that practice after finding some left in his conical.
Click to expand...

Racked from those fermenters to a better bottle and didn't notice anything but a nice thick yeast cake left behind.
 
I brewed this 10 days ago with an OG of 1.090 and the SG is currently 1.016. I was hoping for 1.012. Ferm chamber is still at 82F hoping that will help it get a little lower. Bubbles only every 20-30 seconds though, not sure how many more sugars will get eaten. What would be a good FG for this one?
 
I have encountered a catastrophe: There is no pilsner malt available at any homebrew shops in South Africa at the moment :(

But - I have just over 2kg of pilsner malt in stock - and fortunately I can get pale malt. So should I make up the balance of the pilsner with pale malt or wait until this lack of stock is sorted out?
 
I brewed this yesterday; mostly everything was the same. Went with 8 pounds pilsner, 8 ponds 2-row, and 2 pounds of the D-180. I only went with 1oz of Northern Brewer because I wanted a little but lower IBU on it. 2 liter starter of WLP530. I ended up with 5.25gl of 1.092 wort. I have it fermenting in the chamber at 78 ambient right now.

It's happily gurgling away in the blowoff growler I have set up. I used Fermcap, so no real krausen to speak of, but there is so much pressure built up in the bucket that the lid is bowed out. Hopefully it stays on overnight. Once primary is over, I'm going to rack onto some cut up bourbon barrel staves and the bourbon they've been soaking in. Thank you for the great recipe!
 
joshrosborne said:
there is so much pressure built up in the bucket that the lid is bowed out. Hopefully it stays on overnight.
Click to expand...
Did I get this right?
Is the lid on tight without an airlock or something? Or your blow off is clogged?
 
Sippin37 said:
I brewed this 10 days ago with an OG of 1.090 and the SG is currently 1.016. I was hoping for 1.012. Ferm chamber is still at 82F hoping that will help it get a little lower. Bubbles only every 20-30 seconds though, not sure how many more sugars will get eaten. What would be a good FG for this one?
Click to expand...

1.012-1.013 depending on the polysacs. You're in great shape. Bring the temp back down to 78-80F and wait another 2 weeks.
 
joshrosborne said:
I brewed this yesterday; mostly everything was the same. Went with 8 pounds pilsner, 8 ponds 2-row, and 2 pounds of the D-180. I only went with 1oz of Northern Brewer because I wanted a little but lower IBU on it. 2 liter starter of WLP530. I ended up with 5.25gl of 1.092 wort. I have it fermenting in the chamber at 78 ambient right now.

It's happily gurgling away in the blowoff growler I have set up. I used Fermcap, so no real krausen to speak of, but there is so much pressure built up in the bucket that the lid is bowed out. Hopefully it stays on overnight. Once primary is over, I'm going to rack onto some cut up bourbon barrel staves and the bourbon they've been soaking in. Thank you for the great recipe!
Click to expand...

It sounds like it could be clogging in the airlock. If it's bowing out it should be bubbling like crazy and throwing krausen down the capture tube.

The soaked bourbon oak cubes sounds like a really nice variation. We're experimenting with timed small batch, (5 gallon), medium toast oak barrel aging, 1 month, 2 month, & 5 month. I have no idea how it will turn out but my guess is it will be goooood :)
 

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