240V/30A socket install?

Perusing through the homebrew threads I stumbled upon Kal's Electric Brewery and was blown away. It looks awesomely impressive and professional. I would totally love to do this in the future, however I have one major question about getting power to the system. I saw that basically he built his brewery in a dedicated room in his basement where he had a 240V/30A dryer socket installed. I search a fair bit but couldn't find anything solid on installing a 240V circuit.

Do most people install a separate circuit in there house to run their E-brewery? Or are people unplugging their dryers and running a huge extension cord? Any ideas on the cost associated with a new 240V circuit assuming you don't have to cut through drywall, etc?

Thanks for the clarification!

Basically you have the new junction box ($3), the new 30A breaker ($30?), 10/3+ground wire from breaker panel to your brewspot ($2/ft at lowes...), and either paying an electrician or being savvy/brave enough to do it yourself ($??).

Or, instead of the new breaker, and needing the spa panel ($50), a new GFCI breaker ($100 ish).

You 'could' put an extension box on the existing dryer outlet, reinstall the dryer outlet in that, and then install another J Box next to it (or in a more convenient location) with a new outlet paralleled off of the dryer outlet...

It wouldn't be to code, but it would be safe.. Just don't run the dryer and the brewery at the same time.... Or you'll trip the breaker...

You want to have a GFI somewhere in the line though... You're dealing with electricity and water...

You could even parallel a SPA Box off of the existing dryer outlet, and then hook your brewery up to that... Again, don't run them both at once...

Thanks for the help. Looks like running the cable length would be the most expensive part (assuming I'm not paying someone to do it). I'll have to read more on the installing a Spa panel, but it's sounds like that'll end up costing about the same if not more due to the GFCI breaker.

I have a mud-room that's the pass-through to the rest of the house where the washer/dryer is located. At the moment I could technically run an extension code through there, but I'd rather have a socket out in the garage that's separate.

Definitely more investigating is needed. Thanks again!

r8rphan said:

It wouldn't be to code, but it would be safe.. Just don't run the dryer and the brewery at the same time.... Or you'll trip the breaker...

You want to have a GFI somewhere in the line though... You're dealing with electricity and water...

Click to expand...

Saw this thread, figured I would jump on with additional questions. Assuming I wanted to do everything "to code", I am looking for advice: I have a fairly new (circa 1992) house with 200 AMP electric service. Unfortunalety, every slot in the panel is used. Right now there are existing 220/240 circuits for:
- Well (I think 15 or 20 AMP)
- Dryer (30AMP)
- Stove (50 AMP?)
- 2 other 20 AMP: I think these are for a pair of baseboard (built in) electric heaters in the kitchen.

Amazingly, none of these are marked.

If I wanted to run a new (dedicated) circuit for an electric brewery, is there a suggested approach (given the above).

If I wanted to set up an electic brewery in my laundry room, (where the existing 30 AMP dryer circuit is), is there a suggested approach that meets code?

Thanks.

You can consolidate a four 120v breakers into two positions by installing two duplex breakers where two breakers are combined into a single space. That will free up two spots for a new 240v breaker.

You can reuse the dryer circuit in two ways, either plug in directly or hang another box off of the existing one. The problem is if it's a 3-prong outlet which means they didn't run a neutral, you'll have to grab a different 120v circuit for use with pumps or other 120v devices since it requires a neutral.

The other issue is that of ground fault. I doubt the dryer breaker is a GFI. You can swap out that breaker for GFI but they are usually more expensive than a spa panel with integrated GFI breaker (which you could mount directly adjacent to the dryer outlet).

The stove breaker at 50a is tempting but I think it's a lot easier to hold off drying clothes while brewing than stopping dinner preparation.

You can consolidate a four 120v breakers into two positions by installing two duplex breakers where two breakers are combined into a single space. That will free up two spots for a new 240v breaker.

You can reuse the dryer circuit in two ways, either plug in directly or hang another box off of the existing one. The problem is if it's a 3-prong outlet which means they didn't run a neutral, you'll have to grab a different 120v circuit for use with pumps or other 120v devices since it requires a neutral.

The other issue is that of ground fault. I doubt the dryer breaker is a GFI. You can swap out that breaker for GFI but they are usually more expensive than a spa panel with integrated GFI breaker (which you could mount directly adjacent to the dryer outlet).

I just recently hooked up a 30 amp 4 prong receptacle to my full breaker box and was asking a lot of the same questions as you guys. My thread is linked below and may help you out.
I consolidated 4 -15 amp breakers with 2 tandem 15 amp breakers which freed up space for a 2 pole 30 amp breaker that I wired the receptacle to. Then I ran 100' of 10/3 with ground UF cable out to my brew shed to power the setup. There's a spa panel out in the brew shed that the power runs thru to provide GFCI protection.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/how-connect-spa-panel-full-breaker-box-276680/

Here's my build thread too - it's still a work in progress:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-two-5500-watt-element-1-pid-ssr-build-281085/

_

Bobby_M said:

You can consolidate a four 120v breakers into two positions by installing two duplex breakers where two breakers are combined into a single space. That will free up two spots for a new 240v breaker.

You can reuse the dryer circuit in two ways, either plug in directly or hang another box off of the existing one. The problem is if it's a 3-prong outlet which means they didn't run a neutral, you'll have to grab a different 120v circuit for use with pumps or other 120v devices since it requires a neutral.

The other issue is that of ground fault. I doubt the dryer breaker is a GFI. You can swap out that breaker for GFI but they are usually more expensive than a spa panel with integrated GFI breaker (which you could mount directly adjacent to the dryer outlet).

The stove breaker at 50a is tempting but I think it's a lot easier to hold off drying clothes while brewing than stopping dinner preparation.

Click to expand...

bigljd said:

I just recently hooked up a 30 amp 4 prong receptacle to my full breaker box and was asking a lot of the same questions as you guys. My thread is linked below and may help you out.
I consolidated 4 -15 amp breakers with 2 tandem 15 amp breakers which freed up space for a 2 pole 30 amp breaker that I wired the receptacle to. Then I ran 100' of 10/3 with ground UF cable out to my brew shed to power the setup. There's a spa panel out in the brew shed that the power runs thru to provide GFCI protection.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/how-connect-spa-panel-full-breaker-box-276680/

Here's my build thread too - it's still a work in progress:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-two-5500-watt-element-1-pid-ssr-build-281085/

_

Click to expand...

Thanks to both of you. I'm going to do some further research on what I have and will get back with additional questions!

Thanks for the heads up. I have two breaker boxes in the house, both with free slots. I'll have to take a closer look at the service current (thinking 200A). I'll also have to take a look at where I can run the wires to the new 4-prong dryer outlet. The garage is relatively close the the circuit breaker and I could run the wires through the wall from the basement. Is it a safe assumption that I wouldn't need to sheath the wires in conduit if I'm going through the wall? What about routing through an unfinished basement?

copyright1997 said:

Saw this thread, figured I would jump on with additional questions. Assuming I wanted to do everything "to code", I am looking for advice: I have a fairly new (circa 1992) house with 200 AMP electric service. Unfortunalety, every slot in the panel is used. Right now there are existing 220/240 circuits for:
- Well (I think 15 or 20 AMP)
- Dryer (30AMP)
- Stove (50 AMP?)
- 2 other 20 AMP: I think these are for a pair of baseboard (built in) electric heaters in the kitchen.

Amazingly, none of these are marked.

If I wanted to run a new (dedicated) circuit for an electric brewery, is there a suggested approach (given the above).

If I wanted to set up an electic brewery in my laundry room, (where the existing 30 AMP dryer circuit is), is there a suggested approach that meets code?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

I'm not amazed at all that they're not marked. In our original 100A box, someone had written in pencil on the list on the inside of the door indicating the number of the breakers for the well & water heater, which were two of the three 240V breakers in there at the time. The breaker for the central A/C, as well as all of the 120V circuits, were completely unmarked. Over the years, I had to identify everything else, which all paid off when we went to a 200A service and, lately, to incorporating a standby generator.

If your house is 20 years old, electrical work may have been done that has used up all your slots, and yet the panel itself may be grossly underutilized. Electricians and others tend to operate this way. Don't use existing circuits (especially if you don't have a clue as to what those circuits do.....or IF they're connected to anything), just knock out another opening in the panel and throw in a new breaker, what the hell, they're cheap.

I'm not saying (as I obviously have no knowledge) that your panel has a lot of unused capacity; let's say I strongly suspect it. The bad news is that you need to map out your entire panel and find out what's being used, what's not, and what breakers may be supporting nothing more than a few lights. In that case, you may be able to just remove enough 120V breakers to stick in a 240V, or put in the duplex breakers as suggested in previous posts.

Bobby_M said:

You can consolidate a four 120v breakers into two positions by installing two duplex breakers where two breakers are combined into a single space. That will free up two spots for a new 240v breaker.

Click to expand...

Be careful with this, it is very easy to end up pulling 40A through a neutral this way if you don't know what you're doing...

If any two existing wires are sharing a neutral across A and B phase, make sure that when you're done this is still the case.. When you instal 2 of the slimline breakers in same spot as a regular breaker, the new slimlines will then be on the same phase...

A good way to make more room in a full panel, is to install a subpanel.. Take a couple full size breakers out, and install a 100A breaker and feed a second panel fed from that.. Extend the wires (and their neutral) from the breakers you removed to install the 100A breaker to the new subpanel and install the old breakers there... Now you have a clean 100A panel in which you can install another 12-16-24-32 or whatever circuits... (minus the 2 you just used)

r8rphan said:

Be careful with this, it is very easy to end up pulling 40A through a neutral this way if you don't know what you're doing...

If any two existing wires are sharing a neutral across A and B phase, make sure that when you're done this is still the case.. When you instal 2 of the slimline breakers in same spot as a regular breaker, the new slimlines will then be on the same phase...

A good way to make more room in a full panel, is to install a subpanel.. Take a couple full size breakers out, and install a 100A breaker and feed a second panel fed from that.. Extend the wires (and their neutral) from the breakers you removed to install the 100A breaker to the new subpanel and install the old breakers there... Now you have a clean 100A panel in which you can install another 12-16-24-32 or whatever circuits... (minus the 2 you just used)

Click to expand...

How common is it for 2 hot leads to share a neutral (on 120 circuits, not 240)? I always assumed that all hot wires coming from their 1 pole breaker had their own separate neutral wires running with them to the outlets or wherever.

So I check out my breakers today and I have two separate 200A main breaker boxes. Plenty of space to install a 30A breaker in either box, like 14 slots open in each. Curious though if I'd be able to run 240V 3-phase. No idea how that would be wired, so more searching on that.

One last question I have is if I need to run conduit if I'm running power to a 30A dryer outlet through and unfinished basement and to an in-wall socket. From what I've been reading it seems the answer is no, but I just want to double check from multiple sources.

bigljd said:

How common is it for 2 hot leads to share a neutral (on 120 circuits, not 240)? I always assumed that all hot wires coming from their 1 pole breaker had their own separate neutral wires running with them to the outlets or wherever.

Click to expand...

This is very common. Three hots can share a neutral in three phase. It works because the legs are out of phase so neutral current can never exceed the largest leg current. It saves lots of wire. Arc fault and GFCI circuits need there own neutral though.

mtbiker278 said:

So I check out my breakers today and I have two separate 200A main breaker boxes. Plenty of space to install a 30A breaker in either box, like 14 slots open in each. Curious though if I'd be able to run 240V 3-phase. No idea how that would be wired, so more searching on that.

One last question I have is if I need to run conduit if I'm running power to a 30A dryer outlet through and unfinished basement and to an in-wall socket. From what I've been reading it seems the answer is no, but I just want to double check from multiple sources.

Click to expand...

You would need a 3 phase service. If this is your house its most likely single phase. The main panel should have some sort of label.

Is there romex already installed? If so, you are probably fine. Some places do require conduit even for residential wiring.

r8rphan said:

Be careful with this, it is very easy to end up pulling 40A through a neutral this way if you don't know what you're doing...

If any two existing wires are sharing a neutral across A and B phase, make sure that when you're done this is still the case.. When you instal 2 of the slimline breakers in same spot as a regular breaker, the new slimlines will then be on the same phase...

A good way to make more room in a full panel, is to install a subpanel.. Take a couple full size breakers out, and install a 100A breaker and feed a second panel fed from that.. Extend the wires (and their neutral) from the breakers you removed to install the 100A breaker to the new subpanel and install the old breakers there... Now you have a clean 100A panel in which you can install another 12-16-24-32 or whatever circuits... (minus the 2 you just used)

Click to expand...

Also an equipment ground and ground bar in the subpanel. Good point on the phasing.

lschiavo said:

This is very common. Three hots can share a neutral in three phase. It works because the legs are out of phase so neutral current can never exceed the largest leg current. It saves lots of wire. Arc fault and GFCI circuits need there own neutral though.

Click to expand...

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the OP's thread, but if I had 4 - 15 amp breakers and took them out and replaced them with 2 duplex, I could have a problem?

I wired them in the same order as they were originally, so breakers 1 and 2 both got wired to duplex breaker 1, and breakers 3 and 4 were wired to duplex breaker 2.

How would I know if I had a problem? Is there a way to test which phase they are in? I'm not too worried, since we don't use any high amp stuff on the circuits these were wired too, but I would like to know if I did something wrong.

bigljd said:

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the OP's thread, but if I had 4 - 15 amp breakers and took them out and replaced them with 2 duplex, I could have a problem?

I wired them in the same order as they were originally, so breakers 1 and 2 both got wired to duplex breaker 1, and breakers 3 and 4 were wired to duplex breaker 2.

How would I know if I had a problem? Is there a way to test which phase they are in? I'm not too worried, since we don't use any high amp stuff on the circuits these were wired too, but I would like to know if I did something wrong.

Click to expand...

If the cables leaving the panel are all 2-wire (black,white) with ground, there is no problem. If you have 3-wire (red,black,white and ground) cables that you connected to your tandem breakers, you could have an issue. Just make sure each hot leg of a three wire cable is NOT connected to the same tandem breaker and all is good.

***edit*** this assumes the tandem breakers are installed adjacent to each other.

lschiavo said:

If the cables leaving the panel are all 2-wire (black,white) with ground, there is no problem. If you have 3-wire (red,black,white and ground) cables that you connected to your tandem breakers, you could have an issue. Just make sure each hot leg of a three wire cable is NOT connected to the same tandem breaker and all is good.

***edit*** this assumes the tandem breakers are installed adjacent to each other.

Click to expand...

That's good to know. I just looked at the picture of my panel again and there were a few red wires coming in on the left side of the panel, but the right side where I wired in were all black with what looks to be equal number of white neutral wires, so I think I'm good. This is good knowledge to have if I ever have to do this again in the future. Thanks.

Thanks again for the feedback. Looks like running a 30A dryer socket to the garage is the least of my concerns. Now to plan how to go from Propane BIAB to all electric step-wise.

lschiavo said:

This is very common. Three hots can share a neutral in three phase. It works because the legs are out of phase so neutral current can never exceed the largest leg current. It saves lots of wire. Arc fault and GFCI circuits need there own neutral though.

Click to expand...

I've never seen this on single phase 240 but I'm not an electrician. Good to know though so I know to look for it.

Bobby_M said:

I've never seen this on single phase 240 but I'm not an electrician. Good to know though so I know to look for it.

Click to expand...

Well, maybe it's not VERY common. I have seen my share of it though. In theory, it works great but has some associated hazards. I believe it is still allowed by code if the legs are terminated on a two pole breaker. If you are interested, google "multi-wire branch circuits". It is a good thing to be aware of if you are poking around in your panel.

I installed my panel so I know I don't have any common/shared neutrals but I do poke around in other panels from time to time.

Getting......

I realize that this is getting further and further away from the OP, but how often is 3-phase service found in residential wiring? I'm talking about houses, now, not some multi-occupancy building......

rico567 said:

Getting......

I realize that this is getting further and further away from the OP, but how often is 3-phase service found in residential wiring? I'm talking about houses, now, not some multi-occupancy building......

Click to expand...

I have never seen one. Around here, the utilities charge a hefty installation fee, a bigger monthly fee and sometimes more for usage. Plus, it would be tough to find appliances.

I was just wondering cause I work with a bunch of equipment that is 3 phase.

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