One stop shop tutorial for automated propane?

Hello all,

So I've been trying to RTFM when it comes to the subject of automated propane but I'm confused because the threads out there seem to be scattered with various people chiming in on various things and not knowing much about gas I am lost. I did gather some info from a good post by MNBugEater:

Pilot Thermocouple - Honeywell Q340A1108
Pilot Burner - Honeywell Q314A4586
Solenoid Valve - STC 2W160-10
Pilot Safety Valve - BASO H19AL-1

My valves are 3/8". If you are using or want 1/2" the part numbers are slightly different.

Click to expand...

I understand that:

a) The thermocouple is a thing which tells the pilot safety valve if the burner is on. If its not, the pilot safety valve shuts the gas off.
b) A solenoid valve turns gas on and off. How, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if its connected to a current which when the current is on opens the valve or what.
c) Pilot light, well, obvious.

I don't understand:
a) How this solenoid works. As I said, is there a wire leading to current, when current turns off, valve shuts?
b) How this works into my existing setup. Can it be placed between my propane cylinder and bayou burner (well, with the thermowell copper placed somewhere on the burner to check for flame) or will I need to buy a new burner?
c) How does the pilot light get fed? Some kind of splitter from my propane tank? Does it need a regulator?
d) How this physically goes together.

Can someone describe or point me towards a whole setup for newbies on how to build this. I know almost nothing about gas or propane but I'm pretty handy in general so I can probably catch on with a good tutorial.

Also is my Blue Rhino tank and Bayou burner high pressure or low pressure?

Thanks for the link. Although its nice, it seems the most expensive part of the system is actually the safety valve and spark system. I'm wondering if that is necessary if one would just watch it?

Could I just use a high pressure solenoid like this:

http://www.suremarineservice.com/SV-1.aspx

And hook it right up to the temperature controller with a pilot light? I see this PID temp controller has an output option called "12 volt SSR"... is that what I would hook the solenoid into?

And how does the pilot light work? I guess a splitter?

Jon,

Here is a great build that will answer quite a bit of your questions https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-new-brew-system-brutus-10-some-nice-modifications-172927/

Nick

badmajon said:

I see this PID temp controller has an output option called "12 volt SSR"... is that what I would hook the solenoid into?

And how does the pilot light work? I guess a splitter?

Click to expand...

No, the 12v output from the PID is the signal that goes to and controls the SSR which is just a fancy electronic switch. You also need a 12 volt source to operate the solenoid. The 12 volt source going to your solenoid valve will be switched on and off by the SSR which is controlled by the PID therefore controlling temperature.

Sawdustguy said:

No, the 12v output from the PID is the signal that goes to and controls the SSR which is just a fancy electronic switch. You also need a 12 volt source to operate the solenoid. The 12 volt source going to your solenoid valve will be switched on and off by the SSR which is controlled by the PID therefore controlling temperature.

Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining that. So I need to purchase a seperate SSR for the controller, which I will plug the power source into, which I will plug the solenoid into. Or I'd just select the "10A at 120VAC" output option and stick a transformer on there to take it down to 12v dc.

Now I just have to find an SSR, or something. I will eventually figure this out... some day...

I'm just trying to do a no-frills version of the Cadillac type rigs many people have made (well, I guess its relative), there are a few good plans out there but they are just beyond my means and capabilities.

Here you go. I drew this up for you this morning. The VR8200A is $50 on Ebay and you can find the Q314A for $7.00. You do not need an SSR. You will need a PID controller, 24 volt transformer and RTD (better than a thermocouple). Below is how you hook it up. It is safe because if the pilot goes out the valve will shut the gas off.

Wow, thanks a lot!

wow thanks for the taking the time to draw this up. Very useful.

Is an ignition module necessary? I am assuming it is, but I don't see it in the diagram.

This is a diagram for the low pressure standing (constant) pilot setup. Here is a diagram for the electric ignition setup http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.ladue/Ignition#5420037998508461298. The standing pilot setup is meant for low pressure (<.5 PSI), the electric ignition method can be used with dual valve low pressure furnace valves, or 2 solenoids for high pressure (1-30 PSI) systems where the furnace valves are not meant to be used.

MilwaukeeBrewGuy said:

Is an ignition module necessary? I am assuming it is, but I don't see it in the diagram.

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The diagram I posted is for a standing pilot. If you are looking for low pressure ignition go to the RIMS for Dummies thread.

Sawdustguy said:

Here you go. I drew this up for you this morning. The VR8200A is $50 on Ebay and you can find the Q314A for $7.00. You do not need an SSR. You will need a PID controller, 24 volt transformer and RTD (better than a thermocouple). Below is how you hook it up. It is safe because if the pilot goes out the valve will shut the gas off.

Click to expand...

Do you need an LP conversion kit...valves I'm finding on eBay are saying 3.5"WC...LP is 11"LP correct?

An ignition is necessary. The drawing shown a system with a standing (always on) pilot. This has to lit manually with a flame, piezo igniter or an electronic push button igniter. We use a fully automated system that includes an intermittent igniter. An intermittent igniter begins sparking when there is a demand for heat and stops when it senses the pilot is lit. The pilot is only on during the time there is a demand for heat. The benefit is that if the flame on the burner or pilot were to go out, the ignition module will shut things down and restart the ignition sequence.
This method is more expensive but we are selling our stands and not using them ourselves which means we don't want any brewers blowing themselves up and because our competition doesn't offer it.

The LP conversion for the valves is another spring and different color cap that screws down over the spring. For the Q314 pilot there is usually an LP (.10") orifice shipped in the package with the pilot burner.
Conversion is about a 10 minute job that takes a flat blade screwdriver for the valve and a pair of end wrenches for the pilot. After you start up the burner, open flame adjust valve for burner and adjust the internal regulator ( spring you replaced) on the gas valve for maximum fire level you want to run, adjusting flame after that with manual valve is much easier.
Conversion cost for a single should be around $80-$85 new from PEX supply, less if shopped from ebay. There are some alternate valves and pilots that will work for standing pilot systems, and some mix and match is possible with various manufacturers products.
If you want maximum "Bling" then for about twice that amount you can go electric spark ignition module, pilot burner, and valve.

It seems like the Y8610U kit is just a few dollars more. If I am not mistaken these don't require a conversion either.

The valves and pilots require conversion parts when switching from NG to propane, different pressures and fuel btu values.

I was just thinking if I buy the Y8610U kit I wouldn't need to purchase any extra parts because it looks like you can convert this valve with the parts in the kit.

Honeywell Y8610U4001 Y-Pack Pilot Conversion Kit: HONE263 Climate Doctors

The VR8200A looks like it would require extra parts for the conversion to LP. Am I seeing this correctly?

MilwaukeeBrewGuy said:

I was just thinking if I buy the Y8610U kit I wouldn't need to purchase any extra parts because it looks like you can convert this valve with the parts in the kit.

Honeywell Y8610U4001 Y-Pack Pilot Conversion Kit: HONE263 Climate Doctors

The VR8200A looks like it would require extra parts for the conversion to LP. Am I seeing this correctly?

Click to expand...

A conversion kit to LP is all of $4.
If you want auto ignition I recommend a Smart Valve as opposed to a divorced control module. You'll save a lot of space and will only need to mount the transformer in an enclosure. Been there, done that...

Not a fan of hot surface ignition where spills or physical damage is possible, wort spilled on ignitor will probably kill it when it is fired up. They work great in places that are protected and do not get wet, not exactly what you would expect for a brew system.

Anyone have a picture of the correct look of the Q314 pilot flame? The instructions only seem to show what it shouldn't look like.

The pilot light for this should be at a 45degree angle. At least, that is what I have and it works very well.

The pilot flame should be blue, if yellow/white you have the .018 NG orifice installed and need to change to the .010 propane one that came in the package. remove the line to the pilot and unscrew hex body to change orifice, here is the procedure link http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/PackedLit/95-6714.pdf. Flame length usually is about 1" from tip of metal diverter to flame end, and is adjusted on the gas valve.

Cool. When I fired up the pilots with propane, I think I could have cut through steel with the flame. I opened up the screws and turned them waaaay down and got something that didn't seem like a killer blow torch.

This is what I've been looking for

Sawdustguy said:

Here you go. I drew this up for you this morning. The VR8200A is $50 on Ebay and you can find the Q314A for $7.00. You do not need an SSR. You will need a PID controller, 24 volt transformer and RTD (better than a thermocouple). Below is how you hook it up. It is safe because if the pilot goes out the valve will shut the gas off.

Click to expand...

I'm only trying to temperature control one burner, is there a certain type of 24 Volt Transformer that I need? A certain amount of leads or anything?

Also the wiring from 120 VAC, where the black blob is, would you put a on/off switch there? I'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to electrical just trying to learn.

there was a talk on this at the AHA NHC by Kent that covered automated NG/LP. Don't know when the material will be posted, but he had a parts list and good guidance.
http://www.ahaconference.org/seminars/brewgyvering-your-brew-day/

Sawdustguy: In your figure you show a SYL-4352 Auber controller acting as a switch for applying 24 volts from the transformer to the gas valve but the output from a SYL-4352 is for a SSR and is 12 vdc. Shouldn't you be showing the SLY-4342 which has a relay contact output? http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL43x2.pdf