Existing 220 wiring. Will it work? Pics inside.

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johnp

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I'm wanting to run a pump and 5500w element through highgravity's EBC SV box, which will be running through a spa panel. My home's previous owner had a 220 line running to the garage, but there are 3 wires, a black, a white, and a BARE.

v0CsA.jpg


Does this mean i have hot, hot, ground, and no neutral? Is there any way this will work? My main panel is in the basement, and I dont wanna think about how much it will cost to run a new wire to the garage!
 
Typically, Black is Hot, White is Neutral, and the bare (or green) is ground. If you have a multi-meter, take a reading from the black wire to the white wire. It will say 220 or 110 (or there abouts).

Unfortunately for you, unless your pump is 220, you will not be able to get 110 and 220 out of those wires as you don't have Hot A, Hot B, and Neutral.
 
are you sure that this is 220 it looks like a 120 volt outlet
check in breaker box
 
The only thing that makes it 220 is where those wires terminate on the breaker panel. Find the breaker and I bet it's a two pole 30amp. The wire looks to be 10 gauge. You can likely use it for a 5500 element and then find a separate source for your 120v applications.
 
Wires aren't connected to a breaker, but there's an empty 30 amp breaker, the guy told me he wired it for 220 so he could put an a/c in the garage.

Thanks for the replies guys.
 
Yes yes I know. I thought it was safe to assume the wires were to be connected to the 30 amp breaker...
 
Well, you may have made that assumption, but none of us had any idea you did. So what you have are 3 wires that aren't connected to anything at the outlet box or the breaker box. You can do anything you want with those wires - make them into a 120v circuit, a 220v circuit, pull them out and make a wire-frame unicorn... the limits are endless.

But what I think you're asking is, will it work using the existing wiring and the existing 30A breakers. If the wiring is 10GA, then yes. You would run the black and the white as Hot A and Hot B, and the bare wire as ground. You cannot (safely) derive 120v from Hot A, Hot B, and Ground, so you would not be able to run a 120v pump off that outlet. I would also suggest coloring the white wire with a good section of red electrical tape or paint so future users don't think it's a neutral.
 
My vote, not that anyone asked for it, is for the wire framed unicorn. I can just feel a brewery name hidden in there somewhere.
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
You can do anything you want with those wires - make them into a 120v circuit, a 220v circuit, pull them out and make a wire-frame unicorn... the limits are endless.

But what I think you're asking is, will it work using the existing wiring and the existing 30A breakers. If the wiring is 10GA, then yes. You would run the black and the white as Hot A and Hot B, and the bare wire as ground.

Can I run the black and white as hots, and the bare as neutral?
 
That fits into the same category as making unicorns. Sure, you could do it, but it's not very smart. If you're asking those kinds of questions, you may want to hire someone to install this for you as it sounds like you're closer to burning your house down / killing yourself than you think.
 
BadNewsBrewery said:
That fits into the same category as making unicorns. Sure, you could do it, but it's not very smart. If you're asking those kinds of questions, you may want to hire someone to install this for you as it sounds like you're closer to burning your house down / killing yourself than you think.

I'll do that, thank you
 
Those "look" like 12 gage wires, but they could be 14's. You do have a couple options, but selection of one will limit they other. For instance, if you go the 120V option, that limits you to 2400W, but would have a neutral and ground. Go the 240V option, then you would have double the watts, but not neutral.

The pump needs a neutral. Depends what type of heating element you use, but the one you mentioned (5500W) needs (2) hots and a ground (no neutral). However, the draw (5500W) is way over what you have.

Regardless, like BadNews said, get a local Sparky to come over and give you some advice. Never know, it may be a short run to get the power you really need.;)
 
Sparky said:
Those "look" like 12 gage wires, but they could be 14's. You do have a couple options, but selection of one will limit they other. For instance, if you go the 120V option, that limits you to 2400W, but would have a neutral and ground. Go the 240V option, then you would have double the watts, but not neutral.

The pump needs a neutral. Depends what type of heating element you use, but the one you mentioned (5500W) needs (2) hots and a ground (no neutral). However, the draw (5500W) is way over what you have.

Regardless, like BadNews said, get a local Sparky to come over and give you some advice. Never know, it may be a short run to get the power you really need.;)

Thanks sparky!
 
There is also a difference between a 30 amp breaker and a 30 amp 220 breaker the 220 needs to be drawing from both poles of your house service
 
Can I run the black and white as hots, and the bare as neutral?

No you can't (or, more precisely, shouldn't) but what you can do is obtain a control transformer sufficient to run any 120 V loads you may wish to have and derive a 120V circuit from that. Safe and code compliant. If you do this you must mark the white wire at each end (panel and box) with red tape or some other means so that some guy in the future knows its not a neutral (white).
 
There is also a difference between a 30 amp breaker and a 30 amp 220 breaker the 220 needs to be drawing from both poles of your house service
True that there is such a thing as a 30A single-pole (i.e., 120V) breaker, but they're pretty uncommon. I can't think of a household application for one, actually.
 
I think the pic is deceiving. I think they are 10g. You can either measure the thickness of the copper itself or get to the sheath to see the print on it.

You are correct. Checked with a wire stripper.

No you can't (or, more precisely, shouldn't) but what you can do is obtain a control transformer sufficient to run any 120 V loads you may wish to have and derive a 120V circuit from that. Safe and code compliant. If you do this you must mark the white wire at each end (panel and box) with red tape or some other means so that some guy in the future knows its not a neutral (white).

Thanks for that workaround. I'll ask my electrician about that.
 
He mentioned running this outlet through a spa panel in the OP, wouldn't that allow him to have 4 lines coming out and draw the 120 off one of the hot legs and the new neutral?
 
150VA @ 110V ~= 1.4 Amps. Uber low.
Not really. I said it ought to run a couple based on 746/25 = 30 watts but 115*1.4 = 161 VA (these are the nameplate numbers for the 1/25 HP March pumps used by most of us). Either these things are incredibly reactive or incredibly inefficient or a bit of both.

Just checked: under load at 122 V a 1/25 HP March Pump draws 1.29 A rms for 157 VA but the power consumed is only 93 Watts so that's 93/122 = 0.76 Amp resistive and 1.29 - 0.76 = 0.53 amp reactive for a power factor of 0.59.

Also the efficiency is 30/93 = 32%.

I'm bit surprised but that's what the numbers show.

Given that OP would probably get by with a 150 KVA transformer if all he wanted to run was a single pump but would have to go to a larger transformer if he wanted a second pump or additional 120 V loads.
 
Not really. I said it ought to run a couple based on 746/25 = 30 watts but 115*1.4 = 161 VA (these are the nameplate numbers for the 1/25 HP March pumps used by most of us). Either these things are incredibly reactive or incredibly inefficient or a bit of both.

Just checked: under load at 122 V a 1/25 HP March Pump draws 1.29 A rms for 157 VA but the power consumed is only 93 Watts so that's 93/122 = 0.76 Amp resistive and 1.29 - 0.76 = 0.53 amp reactive for a power factor of 0.59.

Also the efficiency is 30/93 = 32%.

I'm bit surprised but that's what the numbers show.

Given that OP would probably get by with a 150 KVA transformer if all he wanted to run was a single pump but would have to go to a larger transformer if he wanted a second pump or additional 120 V loads.

I just bought a single chugger pump from bobby, I'm assuming it would draw a similar load.
 
Use that line for 30A 240V then use the 120V source in the garage for pumps/control power. There is no reason not to run both into your control panel. I feed into my control panel(s) with three separate circuits.
 
He mentioned running this outlet through a spa panel in the OP, wouldn't that allow him to have 4 lines coming out and draw the 120 off one of the hot legs and the new neutral?

NO. A spa panel does NOT create anything new going out vs. what's coming in with regard to wire functions.
 
lschiavo said:
Use that line for 30A 240V then use the 120V source in the garage for pumps/control power. There is no reason not to run both into your control panel. I feed into my control panel(s) with three separate circuits.

That's a great idea. Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, I'm pretty clueless with electricity. Hence the reason I was looking at buying one. Are there any existing schematics for my situation?
 
That's a great idea. Unfortunately as you can see from this thread, I'm pretty clueless with electricity. Hence the reason I was looking at buying one. Are there any existing schematics for my situation?

Sorry, I missed your reference to the prefab unit. I can't point you to a specific schematic but if you find one that fits your general plan, it could certainly be modified to fit the power you have available.
 
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