Efficiency is horrible

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mattmcl

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This is my second AG batch, and my efficiency is just horrible.

I am using Beersmith, a cooler with SS braid and a Barley Crusher at factory settings. Here's what happened:

Beersmith told me to mash at 154 for 60 min. with 16.88 qt., then batch sparge twice, each with 2.46 g at 168, to collect 7.5 g at 1.053 for boil volume.

I struck at 154, but the temperature plummeted. My cooler sucks. I ended up mashing at 145 for 20 minutes, then got it up to 154 for 60 minutes. I collected 7.25 g. I added a quart and took a reading of 1.051. That puts my mash efficiency at about 65%.

Beersmith then said to boil for 60 min.

I actually boiled for 80 because I overestimated my preboil volume. So I boiled until I had 5 g, which worked out to 4.5 g in the fermenter. I also added 1.5 lb. of honey at flameout. (this was accounted for in the recipe) I added a half gallon of cold water.

Beersmith estimated an OG of 1.083, and I ended up with 1.066. This put my overall efficiency at 58%.

I'm wondering what the heck is going on. I took three readings each time with a calibrated ATC refractometer, and checked it against my hydrometer. Any advice on how to up that efficiency would be much appreciated. Here's the brewsheet from Beersmith:

Type: All Grain
Date: 2/3/2009
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Matt
Boil Size: 7.51 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (10 Gallon) & Cooler
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 53.33 %
3.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 23.33 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.67 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 3.33 %
0.68 oz Magnum [16.70 %] (60 min) Hops 38.0 IBU
0.91 oz Cascade [5.40 %] (15 min) Hops 8.1 IBU
1.50 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 10.00 %
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.083 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.066 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.025 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.50 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.97 %
Bitterness: 46.1 IBU Calories: 291 cal/pint
Est Color: 28.8 SRM Color: Color

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 13.50 lb
Sparge Water: 4.91 gal Grain Temperature: 68.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 68.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 16.88 qt of water at 168.5 F 154.0 F
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Dried Malt Extract Volumes of CO2: 2.1
Pressure/Weight: 4.2 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 60.0 F Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 65.0 F
 
Honestly, I would set the efficiency to 65% when building the recipe. You will find yourself much closer to your OG if you do it that way. It will of course cause you to add more grains to get your readings but it works.

Batch sparging makes it harder to get over 65%. I just did my first AG but I did a lot of homework prior to (I'm sure you did too). I missed my mash temp too but that was an oversight on my part, not because beersmith or my equipment sucks. I told beersmith my cooler was 72° and then I preheated it which caused my strike temp to be higher than it should have been. After adjusting beersmith to what I ACTUALLY did, I NAILED my numbers all around.
 
I would guess that your MLT temp plummeted not because your cooler sucks, but because you didnt pre-heat your MLT BEFORE striking. Your cooler will suck up about 8-10F.... yeah, that much!
 
Batch sparging makes it harder to get over 65%.

That is just not true at all, it just takes time to get used to your set-up, and getting the process right.

Most batch spargers get well over 75%

There are many things that will affect the efficiency.

1) and the biggest; Grain Crush
2) Sparge water Temp
3) Stirring the grain bed after each drain
4) PH of the water
5) Accuracy of the themometer
6) Accuracy of your measurments.

To blame batch sparging for the low efficiency is just plain bad advice.
 
This is my second AG batch, and my efficiency is just horrible.

I am using Beersmith, a cooler with SS braid and a Barley Crusher at factory settings. Here's what happened:

Beersmith told me to mash at 154 for 60 min. with 16.88 qt., then batch sparge twice, each with 2.46 g at 168, to collect 7.5 g at 1.053 for boil volume.

I struck at 154, but the temperature plummeted. My cooler sucks. I ended up mashing at 145 for 20 minutes, then got it up to 154 for 60 minutes. I collected 7.25 g. I added a quart and took a reading of 1.051. That puts my mash efficiency at about 65%.

Beersmith then said to boil for 60 min.

I actually boiled for 80 because I overestimated my preboil volume. So I boiled until I had 5 g, which worked out to 4.5 g in the fermenter. I also added 1.5 lb. of honey at flameout. (this was accounted for in the recipe) I added a half gallon of cold water.

Beersmith estimated an OG of 1.083, and I ended up with 1.066. This put my overall efficiency at 58%.

I'm wondering what the heck is going on. I took three readings each time with a calibrated ATC refractometer, and checked it against my hydrometer. Any advice on how to up that efficiency would be much appreciated. Here's the brewsheet from Beersmith:

There are many things that you could do to increase your efficiency.
1) Make sure your crush is good, if getting from a brew supply shop, ask them to mill it twice
2) What is the PH of your mash water? Maybe use PH 5.2 (not sure if you are already or not)
3) Sparge water should be around 185 degrees. (That alone, increased my efficiency by 10 points.
4) Make sure that after each drain, when you add the sparge water, you stir the crap outta it, like it owes you money.

These items listed are the MAJOR contributors to bad efficiency, but not all encompasing.

Also, check out Bobby M's batch sparging thread, he has done wonders for batch spargers, and has taken many hours to do experiments to help us out.
I will try to dig up a link, or even better, hopefully Bobby will post in here.

Cheers
:mug:
 
I may be wrong, but I think your problem is not your cooler. If you are trying to mash at 154F your strike water temp should not be 154F. The other issue I see is that if you mashed at 145F for 60 min. I don't think you got full conversion of the mash. Did you check for full conversion? With my system as a generic rule if I want to mash at 154F my strike water temp is approx 168F to 170F.

Good Luck,
T-Hops
 
Yeah, I've gotten close to 80% batch sparging. That's not your issue.
I had really similar experiences on my first several all grains. These are the things that helped me.

Set your barley crusher to a smaller gap than factory setting. Search around here. Almost no-one has it set to the factory setting.

Take hydro readings and volumes for each run-off. 1st runnings, 1st and second sparge. This helps to narrow down exactly where you are losing points.

Make sure your hydro and termometers are properly calibrated and reading accurately.

The biggest issue for me is crush. If buying pre-crushed grains I plan on 60-65% efficiency. If I can find someone with a barley crusher to crush it, it goes up to almost 80%.

Brew more! Take very careful notes. I know it's frustrating, not getting the results you wanted, but it still makes delicious beer.
 
That is just not true at all, it just takes time to get used to your set-up, and getting the process right.

Most batch spargers get well over 75%

There are many things that will affect the efficiency.

1) and the biggest; Grain Crush
2) Sparge water Temp
3) Stirring the grain bed after each drain
4) PH of the water
5) Accuracy of the themometer
6) Accuracy of your measurments.

To blame batch sparging for the low efficiency is just plain bad advice.


My mistake. I confused what I read about corona mills with batch sparging. But even the beersmith site tells you to account for efficiency loss if batch sparging, by the way. Not 10% but 5%. How to Batch Sparge - A Beginners Guide to Batch Sparging
 
My mistake. I confused what I read about corona mills with batch sparging.
Now you are really stepping in it man! :)

I batch sparge AND I use a corona mill and I am able to get efficiencies up in the mid 80's. There are lots of others here that do the same.

Two of the biggest myths in homebrewing are that (1) batch sparging results in lower efficiencies than fly/continuous sparging, and that (2) it is not possible to get a decent crush from a corona mill. These myths tend to be propagated by people who lack experience with either technique. If you fall into that category, shame!!! :D:D

Oh -- to the OP -- check out my batch sparging efficiency thread in the AG&PMB sticky here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximizing-efficiency-when-batch-sparging-77125/
 
lol! Thanks! I actually read that thread before you posted it.

Well, not having any friends at all who homebrew, every drop of my learning has been from internet boards and books. I can tell you those 2 are probably still very common myths because that info (which obviously is bad) is in MANY places on the web. It is easy for a guy like me to find this info.

I try to look up as much as I can on this site but the community is just so damn big, I can't keep up and it's difficult to find stuff.

Sorry if I hijacked. I'll just shut up and read now.
 
I may be wrong, but I think your problem is not your cooler. If you are trying to mash at 154F your strike water temp should not be 154F. The other issue I see is that if you mashed at 145F for 60 min. I don't think you got full conversion of the mash. Did you check for full conversion? With my system as a generic rule if I want to mash at 154F my strike water temp is approx 168F to 170F.

Maybe I mis-typed something. I mashed at 145 for 20 min., then added hot water and mashed for 60 min. at 154. My strike water was heated to 170.

I had low efficiency on my last batch too, so this time I made sure to preheat the cooler, stir the mash every 10 minutes or so, and stir when adding sparge water.

I have not checked my water ph though, and I did not test for conversion.

Thanks.
 
What did you heat the sparge water to? I find 180-184 gets me to 168 depending on the grain bill. If your grain bed is not 168 during sparge you are leaving points behind.

Also, your efficiency is not all that bad. It gets better with fine tuning over a few batches. Don't sweat it.

Until you tweak everything adjust the efficiency in beersmith and follow the new recipe.
 
just throwing out suggestions in case you missed em....

in beersmith, you can have the software adjust for temp of your mashtun, you need to accurately tell the program what mash tun you are using (what is it btw?) the real temp of the tun, and the weight. some coolers like round igloo types are already in there.


when i use beersmith, i let it adjust for the temp of my tun, which i keep inside the night before brew, so i know it's temp.

get two floating thermometers, different brands if you can, and double check them to be sure your not getting a poor reading.

batch sparge water, depending on where you mashed, this might need to be 190*!!!!

i mashed a 5 gal @ 148 for an hour, and needed 191* sparge water to hit 168. beersmith helps here too.

you lost half a gallon from flameout to fermenter. thats big, and you added honey, and if i read correctly, "a quart" whatever that is.




fwiw, my first ag efficiency was 62.1, second 68%, third over 70, and the last was 80.1. every time it has gotten better because i get my temps right, and adjust beersmith regularly to my setup/method.


good luck!
 
I suspect your real problem is the topping up with 1/2g water before taking the OG.

By itself, this won't account for the low OG, but if you didn't stir well enough to mix the cold water with the wort, you would be taking the gravity of a small portion of diluted wort.

If you starter with 7.25g at 1.051, you would have collected ~370 points.
Adding the honey would boost that to 433 points which would give you a gravity of 1.087 when boiled down to 5g.
If you collected 4.5g at 1.087 and added an extra 0.5g water, you would end up with a gravity of ~1.079
If you added the honey, and didn't stir at all before racking, you could have left all the honey in the kettle which would give you a gravity of 1.067, but I don't think that is very likely.

-a.
 
Well it's entirely possible my sparge water wasn't hot enough. I took Beersmith's instruction of "sparge with water at 168" to mean that I should heat the water to 168 and pour it in. Should I have heated the water so that AFTER adding to the MLT it would be 168?

By itself, this won't account for the low OG, but if you didn't stir well enough to mix the cold water with the wort, you would be taking the gravity of a small portion of diluted wort.

Heh... no, I made sure to stir it well. I made this mistake once before though. I also made sure to stir the honey in (I stir right before racking to the fermenter, to collect trub in the center of the kettle).

you lost half a gallon from flameout to fermenter. thats big, and you added honey, and if i read correctly, "a quart" whatever that is.

Sorry- I added a quart of water to the fermenter to make 5 gallons. I added 1.5 lbs. of honey at flameout- maybe a pint or so.

It's hard nailing down all the variables, especially with only two batches to get data points from! I have a degree in photography, back when we developed our own film, even color. Very similar in terms of nailing down times, temps, equipment, etc. Still frustrating though. Thanks for the help.
 
I added a quart and took a reading of 1.051. That puts my mash efficiency at about 65%....

....This put my overall efficiency at 58%.

If I understand correctly, you were able to get 65% efficiency with your mash techniques, but dropped to 58% because you left some wort behind in the boiler. Is this right? If so, the 65% is ok and it'll go up with practice and adjusting your mill. Is there a way you can improve your process or system to not leave a half a gallon behind? That loss was 10% of your sweet delicious wort. :(
 
lol! Thanks! I actually read that thread before you posted it.

Well, not having any friends at all who homebrew, every drop of my learning has been from internet boards and books. I can tell you those 2 are probably still very common myths because that info (which obviously is bad) is in MANY places on the web. It is easy for a guy like me to find this info.

I try to look up as much as I can on this site but the community is just so damn big, I can't keep up and it's difficult to find stuff.

Sorry if I hijacked. I'll just shut up and read now.

No need to be quiet Nasty,
It was the same here, no one brewed, and all my info came from here.
It took me 6 months and about 120 gallons brewed before I finally got my stuff dialed in, with all the right factors, and could consistently get over 78% efficiency.
Hang in there and you will get it.
 
I would guess that your MLT temp plummeted not because your cooler sucks, but because you didnt pre-heat your MLT BEFORE striking. Your cooler will suck up about 8-10F.... yeah, that much!

My way of dealing with this was always to put the strike water in at about 180F and close the lid for 5 minutes. After that, assess how close to your calculated strike temp you are and when it cools to that temp, dough in. It's foolproof and takes the cooler's tendency to pull heat out of the equation.

The more involved, but more accurate way, is to calibrate your software based on real tests you perform on your mashtun. I know BTP does this.
 
I know this one was beat to death and you conceded error but just to rub the salt in the wound; I've never gotten less than 72% and most average 85%.

Thanks for the salt. :)

I need to get a mill...

This way I'm in full control of the grain. I just see all the bad info on corona mills, but they're affordable, but I see people are getting excellent efficiency with them. I wouldn't even know how to set or adjust the mills appropriately. I'll take a dive into the DIY forums to see what I can do.
 
Thanks for the salt. :)

I need to get a mill...

This way I'm in full control of the grain. I just see all the bad info on corona mills, but they're affordable, but I see people are getting excellent efficiency with them. I wouldn't even know how to set or adjust the mills appropriately. I'll take a dive into the DIY forums to see what I can do.

See, right there. You must be reading too much. I bought a Corona mill armed only with the knowledge that Papazian still uses a corona after all these years. I had never read anything bad about them so I was expecting nothing but great results from mine. And that's what I get. :mug:

Look at the "Ugly Junk" thread started by Revvy to get a couple simple mods to do to a corona to get it to work perfectly. The same mods are listed elsewhere I'm sure but that's where I saw them first.
 
before your next Ag, go ahead and lube yourself up considerably with what remains of this batch, chances are you wont be too concerned about the numbers at that point, and youll be beaming with confidence. thats what i do to compesate for poor attention to detail. Plus my beer always comes out good(enough). Especially after consuming 2 or 3.
 
Ok, so you got low efficiency. Sounds like your temperature was too low to start with and I suspect never go to where you wanted it to be. You got some great tips here, but I went through the same thing last week with my first all grain and once I got a good gravity reading added DME to bring up my gravity to what I wanted. Of course I haven't drank any yet, but I am now sure I am going to have more than an O'Douls for my effort. Just dissolve the dme in boiling water and add to your primary and all will be forgotten.

Good luck,

Rick
 
you did well, 65% is ok. you can do better! it's still going to end up being beer, and it will taste good. I'm on AG batch 18 and I got 65% 3 batches ago, I was pissed. **** happens. here it is, get used to your equipment, it takes time and practice. take lots of notes, and then take more. live and learn. I use beersmith and love it, I also have a barley crusher and have it set for .032. I have 1/2" braided stainless in my mash tun and I learned to slow down the batch sparge a little because this thing flows like a friggin fire hose when I crack it all the way. I shoot for 22 deg over for first strike and nail mash temp everytime, practice makes perfect.
 
Well, I did hit my temp right off, but I was losing 1 degree every five minutes. I've replaced the cooler and will tighten up the crusher a bit, and have another go at it.
 
If mashing at 154 degrees, I would suggest pouring your mash water into your MLT at 175 degrees, letting it set, thus pre heating your MLT. Then, open, and stir until you reach striking temps. :rockin:
 
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