BYO: Authentic Pilsner recipe

Through a friend (where is my free copy that I signed up for !!), I was able to read the BYO article on brewing an authentic Boehmian Pils. It was certainly surprising to see that he recommended a mash pH lower than 5.0. I don’t think that this is authentic. The Pilsner water is very soft (almost distilled) and pale malt and distilled water get you a pH of 5.4 .. 5.8 (It’s actually one of the things reported in the malt analysis). To get a pH lower than 5 you need to add calcium or magnesium (w/o adding carbonates) or acidify the mash. Mash acidification has been known for a long time, but only to brew light beers with more alkaline water (outside of the Pilsen water area). I’m not sure if a long acid rest could have done that for them. Because of that I doubt that the authentic Pilsners were really mashed at that low of a pH.

The other thing I noted, when looking over the fermentability results that I got so far from my micro mashing experiments, is that the fermentability drops by about 10% when lowering the mash pH below 5.0 compared to a 5.3 mash. This and the 25% dextrin malt that he recommends for that grist may result in way to much unfermentables for that beer. Even mashed at 150F.

I’m beginning to wonder if that recipe was ever brewed or if he was just pulling ideas for a recipe out of his head.

What do you think?

Kai

For my Pilsener, I usually perform a doubled decoction with an acid rest, along with the addition of CaCl2 to the mash. I usually don't take PH readings, so I can't say exactly what the PH was. My pilsener's usally start anywhere from 1.048-1.052 and finish ~1.008-1.012
Maybe I should get some of them little strips for such an experiment.

BTW no Dextrin Malt is used in any of my Pilseners.
Strictly Munich, Crystal, and Pilsener.

using pale malt or pilsner malt? Do they have differing effects on PH?

nathan said:

using pale malt or pilsner malt? Do they have differing effects on PH?

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I'd say slightly since Pale Malt is a little darker.

Kai

I really want to read that article! My wife stopped by the brew store for me one day to pick it up, but they were out. I signed up for a subscription, but I'm certain I'm too late to get my hands on that issue.

Pilsners are my favorite, be they Czech, German, or whatever. I figure you're pretty much the man around here when it comes to this topic, Kaiser, and being a newbie who hasn't even done all grain yet, whatever I offer is merely for the sake of conversation. BTW, great video on decoction mashing! Very inspirational for an aspiring pilsner brewer.

The first thing that comes to mind is a great article that Brewing Techniques did on the process that Pilsner Urquell follows.

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html

A couple of times they make mention of PH, but don't get into specific numbers. They just say that the softness of the water requires adjustments, and that decoction mashing helps to change the PH.

As far as fermentability goes, obviously Czech Pilsners tend to be more malty than their German counterparts. Maybe these methods (however convoluted) are a way to obtain that added maltiness with Pilsner malts. 25% dextrin does sound like an awful lot though.

I think the water profile not harshening the hop bitterness will lend itself to revealing the malt character.

If they are making this with pale malt, rather than pilsner malt, aren't they starting off with the wrong base? Are they even worrying about water profiles? very similar grain and hop bills can end up with a bitburger instead of an urquell based on water profile.

Unfortunately I let my byo subscription lapse and when I renewed, they didn't send me that issue, they waited almost two whole months and just sent me the new one.

Maybe I'll find a copy somewhere. You can order back issues from their site for like $4 shipped.

25% dextrine malt seems completely bizarre, I doubt that would taste like anything you can get in Bohemia.

That certainly does sound like an odd protocol. Maybe it is an attempt to take a highly convertable modern malt and make it less so to mimic the older malts. If this is indeed the gaol, then it makes some sense. You don't want to mess with the mash temp. too much as that will negatively impact the relative activities of alpha vs beta amylase. I'm, not sure, but I suspect the optimal pH is similar for the two amylases, unlike for temperature. 25% dextrin does seem awfully high.

Tonight I'm tasting my recently tapped Czech pils against about 5 commercial examples. The aroma is great, we'll see how it compares in maltiness. This was my first time trying flaked barely as an ingredient so I'll get a good idea of what that brings to the table.

I'm also tasting my German pils against a bunch of commercial examples and then a bunch of miscelllaneous other beers with a bunch of good friends and cooking up a large Paella to go with all the beer. It's going to be a great evening

pjj2ba said:

You don't want to mess with the mash temp. too much as that will negatively impact the relative activities of alpha vs beta amylase.

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The low pH is already messing with the amylase activities.

It's going to be a great evening

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It certainly does.

Kai

I agree there were some odd advices in this article. Especially regarding pH. Noonan in his book says that very low pH will prevent proteins from coagulating, but the article says vise versa and attributes low pH to the clarity of beer. Something does not match.

One thing I learned from my experience lowering pH with CaCl. Considering relatively high hopping rate for Bohemian Pilsner (compare to the German counterpart) chloride make it taste kind of harsh-bitter which I did not like. I think next time I'll try to use softer water and acid malt + decoction.

AdIn said:

I agree there were some odd advices in this article. Especially regarding pH. Noonan in his book says that very low pH will prevent proteins from coagulating, but the article says vise versa and attributes low pH to the clarity of beer. Something does not match.

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I think there is might be an optimal pH for protein coagulation.

I just checked Narziss and he states:
"The optimal pH for protein coagulation is below 5.2 which is practically not reached under under normal conditions. Well modified and highly kilned (i.e. dark malts), a negative residual alkalinity as well as acidification support this process"

While he states that a low pH benefits the protein coagulation, he also states that a pH below 5.2 is unlikely.

I think to comes down to an experiment where the beer is brewed (I suggest w/o the dextrin malt) and we will see what we get.

Kai

Kaiser said:

The low pH is already messing with the amylase activities.
Kai

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My point was that the pH change might affect both enzymes similarly so the ratio of the two activities would be unchanged, even though the total activity would be reduced.

I just checked some enzyme databases and while they had activity data for both amylases from a whole range of organisms, they didn't have a complete set for barley, but they did have data for other grains. The pH optima for beta and alpha amylase are nearly identical (5.6 vs 5.5), but it looks like beta amylase maintains more activity at lower pHs. So a lower pH might favor beta amylase. However the total reduction in activity might lead to more large dextrins in the wort - lots of big dextrins and lots of maltose, but not much of the sizes in between. It would seem to me though that this is what you would add the dextrin malt for, so why bother messing with the pH.

These are a few data points of from a series of limit of attenuation experiments that I'm currently working on. It shows how the limit of attenuation (fermentability) changes with pH:



I'll be releasing more comprehensive data here, but so far it looks as if lowering the pH below an optimum, just makes the wort less fermentable.

Kai

Kaiser,

Are you finishing up these samples and tasting them? Or planing too? I'd be curious how the low pH samples tasted. Typically the higher FG, the "sweeter" the beer. But I wonder if, by making a less fermentable wort by messing with the pH would you get a thicker mouthfeel and body, but lack the sweetness of a typical less fermentable wort produced with a high temp. mash. To me a Czech lager has more body/richness (but not sweetness) than its German counterpart, maybe this is part of it - I'll reconfirm that tonight. I hope the group of us can taste at least 24 beers tonight (not including 8 different homebrews).

This is my one complaint about a lot of the technical research papers on brewing science. They lack any kind of flavor results. Lots of wort make-up, percent utilization, etc, etc, but very little about how these things affect the finished flavor. Granted, most of the research is about maximizing utility of the ingredients for large scale commercial brewing. I don't brew to maximize my ingredient utility, I want to maximize flavor.

pjj2ba said:

Are you finishing up these samples and tasting them? Or planing too? I'd be curious how the low pH samples tasted.

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No, that would make it impossible for me to run the number of experiments that I plan to run.

Typically the higher FG, the "sweeter" the beer. But I wonder if, by making a less fermentable wort by messing with the pH would you get a thicker mouthfeel and body, but lack the sweetness of a typical less fermentable wort produced with a high temp. mash.

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Most of the body and richness is actually not coming from dextines, but from proteins. But one thing to try would be to brew a wort with a low limit of attenuation (less fermentable), but make sure that the actual fermentation comes close to that limit of attenuation. I suspect that one of the reasons of the increased sweetness of beers mashed high, is the higher concentration of maltotriose. This sugar is fermentable and tastes sweet, but yeasts, especially ale yeasts, take their time with it and may leave large amounts of it behind when they give up.

Another explation for the sweetness of high FG beers is that the amylase in the saliva breaks down the dextrines into smaller sugars and creates the sensation of sweetness. This is not my explanation, only something I read somewhere else.

In the end I wonder if a lower fermentability produced by mashing high is different than one produced by mashing with low pH. Essentially, how do the ratios between the fermentable sugars shift.

Kai

I was recently listening to the Brewing Network interview of Dan Gordon. He uses 7% CaraHell and said that is very similar to Pilsner Urquell.

Is CaraHell a dextrin malt? If so, it seems that 25% is indeed more that is authentic (if you consider Pilsner Urquell authentic).