steeping grain, silly question

i feel silly asking but i've got to at this point..
my beers are turning out very good technically, meaning no off flavors, very clear and no extract tang. i do all extract plus grains batches. but it seems they lack flavor and character on the malt side. no backbone. both a brown ale and cream ale turned out this way. i've reviewed my process and the only thing i can think of is that i steep the grains and remove. i don't stir or squeeze out the grain bags before removing. could this be it? i feel goofy b/c i assume (after the fact now of course) that the grain bag is where 90% of flavor comes from when you do extract plus grains, right? any tips on maximizing flavor when doing extract plus grains? thanks! i feel this is the only thing between me and making awesome beer!!!!

I am no expert, but I believe squeezing is a bad thing. Maybe because you can actually force out some tannins? Not sure.

You can rinse the grains, though. If you have a strainer or colander, put it on top of your pot and rinse some hot water through it to get the last of the flavor out. Make sure to adjust your steeping volume down to account for extra rinse water.

There are no silly questions, only silly people. And silly hats.

Squeezing the bag will certainly get you more utilization, though you can achieve the same effect by simply using more steeping grain if squeezing is a problem for some reason. I wouldn't think of specialty grains as the place where you're going to get your malt backbone so much as some nuance and complexity in your malt character. If you are feeling that your malt character is thin, it's probably just a recipe problem. What are you making?

American Brown Ale from Zymurgy:

American Brown Ale – Extract
Recipe for 5.25 gallons (19.8 L)

7.25 lb pale malt extract syrup (3.29 kg)
8 oz 90˚ L crystal malt (227 g)
8 oz 60˚ L crystal malt (227 g)
6.5 oz chocolate malt (184 g)
1 oz black patent malt (28 g)
1 oz Willamette pellets (80 min)
0.5 oz Willamette pellets (30 min)
1 oz Mt Hood pellets (15 min)
0.5 oz Willamette pellets (5 min)
2 pkgs Safeale US-05

Damn that is a heavy recipe! How's it taste???

MalFet said:

There are no silly questions, only silly people. And silly hats.

Squeezing the bag will certainly get you more utilization, though you can achieve the same effect by simply using more steeping grain if squeezing is a problem for some reason. I wouldn't think of specialty grains as the place where you're going to get your malt backbone so much as some nuance and complexity in your malt character. If you are feeling that your malt character is thin, it's probably just a recipe problem. What are you making?

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And don't forget the Ministry of Silly Walks!

I never tried squeezing grain. Can you actually do it?

To maximize flavor extraction, I'd steep in a small amount of water first, then steep a second and possibly a third time in additional small amounts of water at 170 F. Then leave to drain and add all the collected liquid to the pot. When steeping, stir the grain to get the sugars mixed with the water.

Calder said:

And don't forget the Ministry of Silly Walks!

I never tried squeezing grain. Can you actually do it?

To maximize flavor extraction, I'd steep in a small amount of water first, then steep a second and possibly a third time in additional small amounts of water at 170 F. Then leave to drain and add all the collected liquid to the pot. When steeping, stir the grain to get the sugars mixed with the water.

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Yes, you can squeeze it. A little more liquid comes out.

If I were worried about not having enough extraction, I gotta say my inclination would be to increase the amount of grains and stick to a simple process. If nothing else, the simpler the process, the easier to repeat it.

Yes there is a thread here somewhere that decided it is perfectly fine to gently squeeze your sack until all fluids stop dripping out.

^ I don't even bother, I have a microwave/stove combo. I just tie the muslin bag over the microwave handle and let it drip, less work for me..........

I squeeze mine as much as I can, limited because its hot.
I also stir the bag around while it is steeping.

I'd try and steep at a higher temperature , say 160 if you feel you need more body, the higher temp will leave more unfermentable sugars that may improve mouth feel.
Hmm?

grem135 said:

...it is perfectly fine to gently squeeze your sack until all fluids stop dripping out...

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That was my mantra when I was 14....

How quick are you turning your brews around?

I notice a lot more flavour if I condition 6-8 weeks. My last brew tasted like a completely different beast from 3 weeks to 7. I never would of believed it because so far I'm not producing enough beer to keep up with my consumption

ThePonchoKid said:

How quick are you turning your brews around?

I notice a lot more flavour if I condition 6-8 weeks. My last brew tasted like a completely different beast from 3 weeks to 7. I never would of believed it because so far I'm not producing enough beer to keep up with my consumption

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Good question. I brewed this beer Labor Day. So it just hit week six. I had it in primary for 3 weeks and then immediately kegged it. It doesn't taste bad or green (anymore). It's just without any malty character. All hops. So to me it tastes unbalanced. Plus given the grain amount, and I did crush them, it should have more flavor.

I will definitely try stirring while steeping. Also I will steep at 160. I had read that you can put grain bag in water and heat until 160 and then remove. From now on I will keep it in there longing at the peak temp. I will also try running jot water over it.

If it's all hops after 6 weeks perhaps you need to remove the late additions? Maybe you want 10'ish ibu. I think you can steep at 170 or 168 if you want to feel safer. That might even be more advisable than 160. Not certain

I do all grain biab and I'm wondering... I have control of mouth feel and sweetness depending on my mash temp. How does that compare to DME with regard to malty flavour? Aren't the rest of the grains in your recipe basically soak to remove the sugars? No conversion taking place?

You might try adding some base grain to your steep...a partial mash really. Grains like Aromatic, Munich, Vienna, and even pilsner and 2 row, will all help with backbone and aroma. My technique is this: I heat water to about 155, put all the steeping grains in a grain bag and add them to the water. Stabilize the temp and then I put the whole thing in an oven pre heated to the lowest setting and leave it there for 45 minutes with a lid on. It's simple, it works, and you don't have to fuss over the temperature. The temp range will allow your base grains to convert and will also dissolve your crystal and other roasted grains sugars.

To add another question about steeping grains into the mix: how long do you steep?

I've read some comments about steeping grains being responsible for high gravity by adding unfermentables if you steep too long. I've overshot my OG pretty consistently on extract batches, and I'm trying to track down the cause.

freisste said:

I am no expert, but I believe squeezing is a bad thing. Maybe because you can actually force out some tannins? Not sure.

You can rinse the grains, though. If you have a strainer or colander, put it on top of your pot and rinse some hot water through it to get the last of the flavor out. Make sure to adjust your steeping volume down to account for extra rinse water.

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Yes, do not squeeze. You can easily release astringent tannins.

MalFet said:

There are no silly questions, only silly people. And silly hats.

Squeezing the bag will certainly get you more utilization, though you can achieve the same effect by simply using more steeping grain if squeezing is a problem for some reason. I wouldn't think of specialty grains as the place where you're going to get your malt backbone so much as some nuance and complexity in your malt character. If you are feeling that your malt character is thin, it's probably just a recipe problem. What are you making?

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I would be incline to second that the recipe is likely to blame - lack of complexity, but he recipe does seem to have some good complexity. Still, i'd say overall your recipe comment is an excellent point to consider.

zeg said:

Yes, you can squeeze it. A little more liquid comes out.

If I were worried about not having enough extraction, I gotta say my inclination would be to increase the amount of grains and stick to a simple process. If nothing else, the simpler the process, the easier to repeat it.

Click to expand...

grem135 said:

Yes there is a thread here somewhere that decided it is perfectly fine to gently squeeze your sack until all fluids stop dripping out.

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Just because one source says it's ok, doesn't mean it is. I have brewed the same beer twice. Once without squeezing the bags and once with squeezing. The beer where I did squeeze has a very distinct astringency that hits you as an after taste. They taste nearly identical other than that. I will never ever squeeze a bag again - honestly, you don't need the extra exaction. Let it drip, and toss it.

If you want me to buy the idea that squeezing the grain bag releases tannins, you're going to have to propose a chemical mechanism. It's not as though tannins are just sitting there waiting to fall out lie jellybeans in a piñata. If they've already been solublized, they're already in the wort. If they haven't been solublized, squeezing the bag won't change that.

MalFet said:

If you want me to buy the idea that squeezing the grain bag releases tannins, you're going to have to propose a chemical mechanism. It's not as though tannins are just sitting there waiting to fall out lie jellybeans in a piñata. If they've already been solublized, they're already in the wort. If they haven't been solublized, squeezing the bag won't change that.

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Like many other aspects of home brewing, I'm content formulating my opinion based on a combination of my own experience, what I read, what I hear, without actually hitting the lab. I've heard John and Jamil talk about it. I've read an article in BYO about it. I've read of someone doing a split batch experiment, and I have brewed the identical beer twice myself, the only difference being that I squeezed the bag on one and not the other. All of which tell me that it may not happen all the time, but it is certainly possible and not worth the risk since squeezing really isn't necessary.

I dont think there is anything wrong with the recipe, the one you posted is pretty bold. I would guess the issue is the yeast. Yeast imparts a large amount of the flavor of the beer. I once brewed a batch, split it between 2 fermetors, and used a different yeast type in each. Its amazing how different they tasted. What do your ferm temps look like? Are you using a starter? Have you ever used liquid yeast/smack packs? How soon does your fetmentation start?

helibrewer said:

You might try adding some base grain to your steep...a partial mash really. Grains like Aromatic, Munich, Vienna, and even pilsner and 2 row, will all help with backbone and aroma. My technique is this: I heat water to about 155, put all the steeping grains in a grain bag and add them to the water. Stabilize the temp and then I put the whole thing in an oven pre heated to the lowest setting and leave it there for 45 minutes with a lid on. It's simple, it works, and you don't have to fuss over the temperature. The temp range will allow your base grains to convert and will also dissolve your crystal and other roasted grains sugars.

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This gets my vote. Start with extract with grains, move to partial mash, you'll be all grain brewing with BIAB in no time. At that point you can adjust your malt profile to be whatever you wish. :rockin:

Tannins are relased into the water based on 3 things (2 of which could be expressed as 1) ... Heat, Time and PH. If the PH is close to neutral (7) then the tanins will come into the water more. Heat (over 170) and time (longer duration) will bring out the tannins. If you steep at about 155, for 30 mins, it is unlikely that you will draw out much tannins, even with squeezing. If the heat goes higher, or you let it sit for a long time, that would alow for more Tannins to get into your wort. This has been mentioned in other threads.

You can see this with making tea if you want. Tannins are what give the tea the major flavor.

(Heat+time=energy, ie the energy to extract the tannins).

J187 said:

Like many other aspects of home brewing, I'm content formulating my opinion based on a combination of my own experience, what I read, what I hear, without actually hitting the lab. I've heard John and Jamil talk about it. I've read an article in BYO about it. I've read of someone doing a split batch experiment, and I have brewed the identical beer twice myself, the only difference being that I squeezed the bag on one and not the other. All of which tell me that it may not happen all the time, but it is certainly possible and not worth the risk since squeezing really isn't necessary.

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It's certainly a popular notion, though nobody really ever proposes a mechanism for it. Do whatever works for you of course, but I have to say that I can't reconcile this idea of tannin extraction from mechanical pressure with my understanding of chemistry (or my own anecdotal experiences).

Anyway, since you brought him up, here's a picture from Palmer's book of him squeezing the grain bag and instructing others to do the same:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-3.html

J187 said:

Like many other aspects of home brewing, I'm content formulating my opinion based on a combination of my own experience, what I read, what I hear, without actually hitting the lab. I've heard John and Jamil talk about it. I've read an article in BYO about it. I've read of someone doing a split batch experiment, and I have brewed the identical beer twice myself, the only difference being that I squeezed the bag on one and not the other. All of which tell me that it may not happen all the time, but it is certainly possible and not worth the risk since squeezing really isn't necessary.

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You're entitled to your opinion, and I think you're wise to base your process decisions on the information you have and your own experience.

However, there is extensive discussion on this subject on this forum and others. The general consensus from what I've read is that the squeezing = tannins concept is probably a myth. There certainly is some disagreement, and some decent theories as to how it might happen or why other factors might make squeezing undesirable. Certainly, though, the risk seems to be quite small.

Still, I don't tend to squeeze, simply because I'm not worried about the last little bit.

MalFet said:

It's certainly a popular notion, though nobody really ever proposes a mechanism for it. Do whatever works for you of course, but I have to say that I can't reconcile this idea of tannin extraction from mechanical pressure with my understanding of chemistry (or my own anecdotal experiences).

Anyway, since you brought him up, here's a picture from Palmer's book of him squeezing the grain bag and instructing others to do the same:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-3.html

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Yea, but that's the online edition from what, 1996?

Here's the same book, same chapter, 10 years later in actual print form with no mention of squeezing the grain - I'm guessing purposefully omitted:

J187 said:

Yea, but that's the online edition from what, 1996?

Here's the same book, same chapter, 10 years later in actual print form with no mention of squeezing the grain - I'm guessing purposefully omitted:

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True enough, but I'm sure you noticed that, in that very section of the new edition, Palmer devotes a full two paragraphs to tannin extraction during steeping without a single word on mechanical pressure or its negative effects.

As I said, you should do whatever works for you, but I've seen no good reason to believe that this is anything but an old wives tale. I can't imagine a mechanism by which squeezing would "extract tannins", and even the most vocal believers have never been able to propose one consistent with what we know about brewing chemistry. Brewers in my neck of the woods are adamant that you shouldn't make beer on full moons, and this kind of feels like the same thing. Maybe it's true, but I can't for the life of me think of why it would be.

grem135 said:

Yes there is a thread here somewhere that decided it is perfectly fine to gently squeeze your sack until all fluids stop dripping out.

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To quote Larry the Cable Guy: I don't care what you say, that's funny....

ThatGeekGuy said:

To quote Larry the Cable Guy: I don't care what you say, that's funny....

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I thought it was "I don't care who you are, now that's funny"?

ThatGeekGuy said:

To quote Larry the Cable Guy: I don't care what you say, that's funny....

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I'm glad someone saw the humor in it.

MalFet said:

True enough, but I'm sure you noticed that, in that very section of the new edition, Palmer devotes a full two paragraphs to tannin extraction during steeping without a single word on mechanical pressure or its negative effects.

As I said, you should do whatever works for you, but I've seen no good reason to believe that this is anything but an old wives tale. I can't imagine a mechanism by which squeezing would "extract tannins", and even the most vocal believers have never been able to propose one consistent with what we know about brewing chemistry. Brewers in my neck of the woods are adamant that you shouldn't make beer on full moons, and this kind of feels like the same thing. Maybe it's true, but I can't for the life of me think of why it would be.

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Whoa... you make beer during full moons??? You're even nuttier than I thought!

MalFet said:

As I said, you should do whatever works for you, but I've seen no good reason to believe that this is anything but an old wives tale. I can't imagine a mechanism by which squeezing would "extract tannins",.

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Yeah I agree with this. Ph, time and temp are the big key. Maybe next brew I do this way I will taste test.

I can see where there would be some confusion on this. Malt grains are rinsed (and some brew in bag folks squeeze their grains). But in the case of steeping grains, you have a thin liquid of low viscosity that is holding the tannins, it will have come out in the steep, where as in a malt situation, there could be some more viscous liquid that is still in the grains.