Racking to a keg

day_trippr said:

Nope. Still air left.

fwiw, I cut all of my gas tubes to under 1/2" - they don't even make it through the risers. But that's irrelevant - the gas isn't trapped because of the gas tubes. They could be a foot long and not change anything, because you're not venting through the gas tube, but via the PRV. Which can't be shortened.

Otoh, if venting through the shortened gas tube, at some point when you're trying to get the air out of the lid cavity by tilting, the bubble will move to the corner of the keg and miss the gas tube port. Too indeterminate for my likes

I've been using the "upright" method for over a year, and noticed more than once that I could hear a slight gurgling when moving a "filled" keg. That's because there was air left. When I shook these kegs there was nothing - it was solid water.

And the second keg didn't take more than a couple of minutes extra, as the infrastructure stuff was solved with the first keg...

Cheers!

Click to expand...

I'm not venting via the PRV... i'm venting via the gas port. You have to swirl it around a bit but after a few shakes its all out.

day_trippr said:

Nope. Still air left.

fwiw, I cut all of my gas tubes to under 1/2" - they don't even make it through the risers. But that's irrelevant - the gas isn't trapped because of the gas tubes. They could be a foot long and not change anything, because you're not venting through the gas tube, but via the PRV. Which can't be shortened.

Otoh, if venting through the shortened gas tube, at some point when you're trying to get the air out of the lid cavity by tilting, the bubble will move to the corner of the keg and miss the gas tube port. Too indeterminate for my likes

I've been using the "upright" method for over a year, and noticed more than once that I could hear a slight gurgling when moving a "filled" keg. That's because there was air left. When I shook these kegs there was nothing - it was solid water.

And the second keg didn't take more than a couple of minutes extra, as the infrastructure stuff was solved with the first keg...

Cheers!

Click to expand...

You're stressing me out with the oxygen thing. I'm thinking I'm making progress with my starsan purged kegs, now I find out I still have half a cup of open space in my kegs that could still contain oxygen? I'm getting nowhere trying to keep up with the anti-oxygen movement...

On the other hand, how much Oxygen do I need to add to this Helles lager to keep the yeast happy?? ?

Seriously, why oxygenate when pitching yeast after all the work cutting down hot side o2 and post fermentation o2? I'm at a loss, is it good or bad? Should I even be consuming oxygen myself (please don't answer that)?

schematix said:

Oxidation is real. [...]

Step 3: Ferment
View attachment 379083

Add yeast and a few psi of pressure to the kegs. You need this pressure to keep the lid sealed. Set spunding valve to match. I like about 3.5 psi, but you could experiment here.

The idea of this set up is that you use all of the fermentation gas to continue to purge the serving keg.

Bonus: The added head pressure collapses the kraussen bubbles. My lager fermentations max at 1cm of kraussen, meaning i can nearly fill the keg to capacity.

[...]

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Most of your method makes sense, and I would love to ferment in corny kegs to reduce or eliminate O2 during transfers later.

However, humor me on this (highlighted in blue above):
Since we oxygenate our wort at pitching time, wouldn't the excess oxygen from the FV end up in the SK, thus creating a CO2/O2 mixture, that is being carried forward to our finished beer when "racking" to the SK in Step 4?

It looks like we are dealing with O2 on top of our beer again during racking and after.

Maybe it's better to attach the SK after the bulk of the fermentation has ceased, allowing the excess O2 to be blown off through the spunding valve with the generated CO2.

Or after transfer to the SK, perhaps a few good headspace purge cycles will suffice. There will still be some O2 left though.

IslandLizard said:

Most of your method makes sense, and I would love to ferment in corny kegs to reduce or eliminate O2 during transfers later.

However, humor me on this (highlighted in blue above):
Since we oxygenate our wort at pitching time, wouldn't the excess oxygen from the FV end up in the SK, thus creating a CO2/O2 mixture, that is being carried forward to our finished beer when "racking" to the SK in Step 4?

It looks like we are dealing with O2 on top of our beer again during racking and after.

Maybe it's better to attach the SK after the bulk of the fermentation has ceased, allowing the excess O2 to be blown off through the spunding valve with the generated CO2.

Or after transfer to the SK, perhaps a few good headspace purge cycles will suffice. There will still be some O2 left though.

Click to expand...

I love reading posts like this because it means someone actually thought it through and tried to rationalize the process.

And you're right... that would remix O2 into an otherwise carefully purged keg, which defeats the purpose of going through all that extra effort to do a nearly complete purge.

But... I normally don't connect the SK to the FV until the next day (or later on that evening for ales). I assume by that point most of the O2 is consumed by the yeast. I'll update the process steps to reflect that.

I don't have a DO meter (yet) so i can't definitively make a conclusion, but i would hypothesize that if you spund (or seal and monitor) the serving keg that a simple water purge (neglect the air in the lid) plus flushing with fermentation gas is sufficient. However if you are racking a finished beer into a serving keg and plan to force carb then this is probably the best you can do to keep O2 out. Having some active fermentation in the SK is the best way to ensure O2 is driven down into the ppb range.

schematix said:

I love reading posts like this because it means someone actually thought it through and tried to rationalize the process.

And you're right... that would remix O2 into an otherwise carefully purged keg, which defeats the purpose of going through all that extra effort to do a nearly complete purge.

But... I normally don't connect the SK to the FV until the next day (or later on that evening for ales). I assume by that point most of the O2 is consumed by the yeast. I'll update the process steps to reflect that.

I don't have a DO meter (yet) so i can't definitively make a conclusion, but i would hypothesize that if you spund (or seal and monitor) the serving keg that a simple water purge (neglect the air in the lid) plus flushing with fermentation gas is sufficient. However if you are racking a finished beer into a serving keg and plan to force carb then this is probably the best you can do to keep O2 out. Having some active fermentation in the SK is the best way to ensure O2 is driven down into the ppb range.

Click to expand...

I'd read your original post at the time, and the piggybacked SK is definitely an interesting and novel idea.
But I didn't think it all through in more detail, until now.

For example, based on the generally applied dosage rate of 1 l/min for 1 minute, which I've found way too wasteful (large surface bubbles), I oxygenate 5.5 gallons of wort for 4 minutes at 1/4 l/min in a 6.5 gallon plastic bucket, moving the 0.5 micron stone around on the bottom. I feel that way I get maximum benefit of the O2 applied within reasonable time. 8-16 minutes at 1/8-1/16 l/min maybe even better, but with diminishing returns. At the 1/4 l/min rate I still see some rippling on the surface and good foaming, so some O2 is still wasted. Without a DO meter, we indeed have no clue how much O2 gets actually absorbed.

Someone posted an O2 calculator a few weeks ago, you may have seen it, but I think it's incomplete, simply overstating the O2 absorption rate.

OK, back to the O2 that actually remains in the wort. We don't know how much of it gets used by the yeast, but undoubtedly, there will be some left. Most, if not all of the excess, should outgas together with the CO2 production, so blowing that off during the main fermentation stage may reduce the O2 in the system to reasonably low amounts, as long as the SK (read: extended headspace) was not connected.

This "reasonably low O2" still tends to defy the original premise of O2 free. I think it takes a few days to get there, certainly longer than 8-12 hours after pitching while the amount of CO2 produced is usually minimal.*

* I had lift off on my last Belgian IPA (WY3522) within 4 hours after pitching, and it was at predicted FG after 36 hours. All at 68-70F!

IslandLizard said:

OK, back to the O2 that actually remains in the wort. We don't know how much of it gets used by the yeast, but undoubtedly, there will be some left. Most, if not all of the excess, should outgas together with the CO2 production, so blowing that off during the main fermentation stage may reduce the O2 in the system to reasonably low amounts, as long as the SK (read: extended headspace) was not connected.

This "reasonably low O2" still tends to defy the original premise of O2 free. I think it takes a few days to get there, certainly longer than 8-12 hours after pitching while the amount of CO2 produced is usually minimal.*

Click to expand...

I've seen references to the yeast beginning O2 scavenging almost immediately and at the rate of 2-3ppm/hr. The whole idea of finishing fermenting in the SK relies on the premise that the yeast will consume essentially all free O2, and thus the conclusion that after a few hours (assuming max 8-12ppm O2 after oxygenation), that the O2 is all consumed.

Simply put: I appear to have clogged the poppet in the beer side of the keg. After filling the rest through the hatch will I have to take the poppet off before trying to get any beer to flow out? Or will the CO2 provide enough pressure to unclog it and allow the beer to flow?

Thanks!

Details below:

So I was reading this thread before kegging my first beer. I fermented in a Fermonster with a spigot so my plan was to attach a hose from the spigot to the beer out tube to fill the keg from the bottom. I sanitized the keg and then pushed the sanitizer out through the beer line and faucet.

I drained about 1/4 to 1/3 of the fermenter before everything stopped flowing. I was afraid of clogging the poppet after reading through this thread and sure enough that's what happened. So I opened the hatch and drained the rest. I have not ever cold crashed so I assume that will help avoid this issue going forward by really pushing anything left in suspension to the bottom.

Will the poppet need to be removed, cleaned and sanitized again for the beer to flow through the faucet? Or will the pressure from the CO2 in the keg be enough to push the beer out and unclog the poppet?

First, check your liquid QD. Hops will clog those first, usually. The top screws off. Be careful not to lose the tiny oring in it.
If that doesn't work...
Try hooking up co2 to the beer post.
May push the clog out.
If that doesn't work, you'll have to pull the post.

Jwin said:

First, check your liquid QD. Hops will clog those first, usually. The top screws off. Be careful not to lose the tiny oring in it.
If that doesn't work...
Try hooking up co2 to the beer post.
May push the clog out.
If that doesn't work, you'll have to pull the post.

Click to expand...

When you say the liquid QD you're referring to the ball lock right? I had thought about that after I filled it that maybe it could be clogged in the ball lock. I have two separate ball locks, one that was attached to a loose hose to fill the keg and then another that's attached to the faucet hose in the keezer. So if the ball lock was clogged the keg should pour without an issue I guess. I'll give it a pour tonight and see where I stand.

Yes.QD= Quick Disconnect
In theory, yes it should. But you'll still need to clean out your other one...

Jwin said:

Yes.QD= Quick Disconnect
In theory, yes it should. But you'll still need to clean out your other one...

Click to expand...

Yup, will do tonight. Thanks again.

Resurrecting this thread as I've had issues with my last 2 transfers using the exact same setup as mongoose (who has been a big help). I can't figure out what's going on. Fill fermenter with star San, transfer to keg on brew day it works fine. Brew beer and rack to fermenter. Try to transfer to keg and nothing. Check spigot, flows fine, I fill hydrometer test tube. Transfer line fills with beer but won't flow into keg. Disconnect line from spigot, hold upright and it flows to keg just fine. So QD and poppet not clogged? Reconnect all lines, get a couple seconds of flow and then stalls.....I've tried putting the co2 back to top of fermenter like mongoose, I've tried putting gas QD on with no hose and venting to atmosphere. I've tried leaving the prv open. I don't know why it would transfer starsan fine but not beer if nothing seems clogged. BTW this was w different kegs and this time was a new set of QDs and I used keg lube. Any ideas?
Edit: Everytime I disconnect the liquid qd and reconnect I get a few seconds of flow into keg and then it stops.

Sounds like it is pressure-related.

Are you trying to let the beer flow with gravity or with pressure from CO2?

Is the fermenter elevated higher than keg?

You should always leave the PRV open when transferring.

The fermenter is higher, sitting on the chest freezer and keg is on the floor. I originally was using co2 from the keg diverted back to top of fermenter. I did this, exact same setup as mongoose from earlier in this thread, for my first few transfers and had no issues. This time after that didn't work I disconnected the co2 line, blead all pressure from keg and tried a gravity feed. Thought my line was too long, although no issues with starsan transfer, shortened the liquid line but still issues.

Sure sounds like your beer dip tube is clogging...

Cheers!

Can I clean that out while the keg is full?

Tarpon87 said:

The fermenter is higher, sitting on the chest freezer and keg is on the floor. I originally was using co2 from the keg diverted back to top of fermenter. I did this, exact same setup as mongoose from earlier in this thread, for my first few transfers and had no issues. This time after that didn't work I disconnected the co2 line, blead all pressure from keg and tried a gravity feed. Thought my line was too long, although no issues with starsan transfer, shortened the liquid line but still issues.

Click to expand...

Have you tried just applying pressure to the fermenter and make sure you can push the beer to the keg that way first (with PRV open). If that works, then you can rule out the fermenter to keg part, and then focus on why the pressure isn't pushing it.

When you have mongoose's setup all hooked up with CO2 applied to pressurize it, does it hold pressure even though the beer isn't flowing?

Tarpon87 said:

Can I clean that out while the keg is full?

Click to expand...

Soitenly! Just be sure to latch the PRV open before you remove the beer post, and sanitize everything before reassembly...

Cheers!

When I have it setup like mongoose's there is definitely pressure in there, it's wanting to blow the lid off the BMB, but no transfer of beer. If I open the prv all the pressure is blead out from keg so none gets diverted to top of fermenter.

How many psi are you putting into the keg to start?

For sure I don't know, I only have 1 regulator and it's set to 12psi right now because there is a keg on tap currently. So it pushes the starsan out at that psi, I disconnect and then bleed some off but can't be sure what psi would be going into the fermenter

Assuming no clogs, it seems like it's gotta be either not enough pressure to get it started and/or not enough height differential between the 2 vessels.

I'd still try to see if you can put 1-2 psi on the fermenter and push it that way. If that works, that will rule some things out as the cause.

I want to thank you guys for your help. I have managed to keg the beer mostly from disconnecting and reconnected the liquid QD and getting 1/8gal flow each time. So that's the good news, hopefully haven't ruined this beer in the process. The bad news is I haven't fixed my issue. When my current keg kicks I will clean out the dip tube, poppets etc. I will clean out the QDs and I have a RIS in secondary that I will transfer, no hops no trub to clog anything, hopefully that will eliminate some variables.

I pull the tube from my Sanke keg, rinse it and shake several times with really hot water, dump it out, then rack from carboy to keg. Try to keep the end of the hose near the bottom. No problems in 6.5 gal. batches so far done it probably 15 times. May not always work I guess....

jmcquesten said:

You're stressing me out with the oxygen thing. I'm thinking I'm making progress with my starsan purged kegs, now I find out I still have half a cup of open space in my kegs that could still contain oxygen? I'm getting nowhere trying to keep up with the anti-oxygen movement...

On the other hand, how much Oxygen do I need to add to this Helles lager to keep the yeast happy?? ?

Seriously, why oxygenate when pitching yeast after all the work cutting down hot side o2 and post fermentation o2? I'm at a loss, is it good or bad? Should I even be consuming oxygen myself (please don't answer that)?

Click to expand...

I hadn't seen this the first time, so let me add something to purging kegs full of star-san.

When I transfer star-san from the serving keg to purge it w/ CO to the next keg, I always have the lid off; I let the CO2 bubble up from the bottom until the headspace is filled with foam and it starts to come out of the mouth of the keg.

What's in that foam? CO2! So by ensuring I replace the lid on that foam, I'm ensuring I have virtually nothing but star-san and CO2 foam in that keg. When it becomes the next serving keg, I'll transfer the star-san from that to the next in line.

So I don't have much if any oxygen in those kegs when I'm purging of star-san.

Question: I understand how to fully purge the SK prior to racking, but how do you all purge the tubing and racking cane? Maybe I'm missing something, but if there is air in the tubing or racking cane, isn't that mixing with the beer once it enters the keg?

derekcw83 said:

Question: I understand how to fully purge the SK prior to racking, but how do you all purge the tubing and racking cane? Maybe I'm missing something, but if there is air in the tubing or racking cane, isn't that mixing with the beer once it enters the keg?

Click to expand...

Depending on how you want to do it, you can leave a little residual CO2 pressure in your serving keg. Before you insert your racking cane/tubing into the fermenter, attach the QD and blow out the cane/tubing; as the pressure subsides, then put the racking cane in the beer.

Do not put the racking cane in the beer first then attach the QD or you will not only force the air in the tubing into the beer, you'll create a lot of bubbles and may stir up the trub. And if you are doing this with a spigot on the bottom of the fermenter, well, you don't want to do that.

Believe me. Don't ask how I know.

Perfect, that makes sense. So I can potentially do this with my autosiphon correct?

derekcw83 said:

Perfect, that makes sense. So I can potentially do this with my autosiphon correct?

Click to expand...

It's been a long time since I've used one, but I would think so. Try blowing through it and see if you can get an open air channel.